Unit Testings

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  • Unit Testings

    Hello,

    All the wars have been fought, all the curses have been thrown, all the insults have been hurled... now I think its time for something friendly...

    I have been thinking ever since this war started which was better, hoplite or steam giant... you can maintain 4 hoplites for every steam giant, however, will 4 hoplites best a steam giant?

    So, to anybody who's interested, I would be interested personally, in trying some battles with the following attempts...


    100 steam giants vs 400 hoplites...
    400 spearmen vs 100 swordsmen...

    And of course, a basic army line in front with archers vs gunsmen...

    I would be willing to invest in these attempts at the truth, if anybody else is willing... I have 1 city that is without any walls or hideouts, thats currently a mobile... its placed at 36 35 under the name Polis.


    Who here would be interested in some friendly fighting in an aim to see which is best?

    There is one requirement though... I demand that anybody considering this offer, have the unit that they're going to test, FULLY UPGRADED... meaning, armor and weaponry...

    The person must also bring along 50 cooks in order to insure that the battle will last till the stats have been found out...
  • Our home secretary, crm359, already performed such experiments :
    Battle for Knowledge


    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ
    ................................ - Hoplite..............154(-246)..
    Steam Giant............0(-100).. - ................................
    Cook..................30(-0).... - Cook..................20(-0)....
    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ
    Generals....................-620 - Generals....................-344
    Damage Received...........31,000 - Damage Received...........17,220
    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ



    Aother battle between hops and giants but on a ratio of 3:1

    210 hops vs 70 giants

    Battle for Knowledge

    Hoplite
    vs
    Steam Giants

    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ
    Hoplite...............29(-181).. - ................................
    ................................ - Steam Giant............0(-70)...
    Cook..................20(-0).... - Cook..................20(-0)....
    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ
    Generals....................-253 - Generals....................-434
    Damage Received...........12,670 - Damage Received...........21,700
    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ

    Winners: Hoplite


    Great idea Duran, hopefully you will post more combinations/results soon. Cheers
  • Why would you put 400 hoplites vs 100 steams? Wouldn´t it be better to take three full frontlines of each unit type? You never get to see the effects of spread damage if using so few units.

    I recommend you use 210 Steams vs 630 hoplites. Lets say you will be impressed to see what happens a few rounds into the battle ;)

    Battle for Knowledge


    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ
    ................................ - Hoplite..............154(-246)..
    Steam Giant............0(-100).. - ................................
    Cook..................30(-0).... - Cook..................20(-0)....
    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ
    Generals....................-620 - Generals....................-344
    Damage Received...........31,000 - Damage Received...........17,220
    „Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„ Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ„Ÿ



    This test would have been much more accurate if using equal amounts of cooks as well as an equal amountof ranged units on each side. Hoplites and Steams react totally different to ranged line damage. Using an equal amount of siege units would also make the results more accurate.
  • What about determining the strength of archers vs steam giants... and the strength of gunsmen vs steam giants...


    1st we'd do a test round of steam giants vs steam giants... 70 steam giants each... together with 10 cooks on each side...

    Measure how many rounds it would take, then take archers for one side, and gunsmen for the other... and measure which in the end causes the most damage... and exactly how much damage they cause...

    Same could be done with hoplites,

    And in the end we could probably add artillery diffrences as well.
  • I'll either save you some hard work - or cause you even more.

    No battle is ever fought in isolation.

    Docs, artillery, bombs, (even gyros) all have a HUGE effect
    So does rotation.
    How active is the player? Do they rotate their troops?

    Most large alliances have already tested most of this - and in the end, it can often come down to the player preference rather than any specific superiority.

    Its why all alliances keep a large bank of CRs on their own forums - it's not just about showing victory, but to learn lessons.

    I wish you well in this exploration - but remember to consider all aspects.

    Such testing can be "expensive" but the rewards are well worth it when you get into battle.

    Kind regards
    Talista

    (Edit: as you can see, I respectfully disagree with St Joe. Why do you think it is that if you field hoplites, I'm happy to field rams. This makes a HUGE difference to overall cost)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Talista ().

  • Hello,

    Duran: Maybe you should check out this tread from when 0.3.2 was released: 0.3.2 - Combat

    Rather than running individual battle sets up for their results, try to gather knowledge of why it happens and soon you'll be able to calculate larger battles. If you want to get in touch I can calculate exactly how units A deal damage to units B (complete/incomplete stacks,sinlge/multiple stacks or a mix). I broke the formula for your suggested battle type a while back, I also solved wall damage early in version 0.3.2.

    One of the few questions I have remaining is: "If an enemy front rank unit within a stack has been wounded by shooters, will it be the first target (within its stack) for damage by your front rank troops attacking later in the same round? I know the answerfor "the next round", but not between unit types during the same round. Once I have the answer I can start building a full single round calculator (for viable unit formations) in Excel; then multiple rounds.

    I'd suggest maybe starting out exploring sea battles; from what I see there is less "factual" information available and due to a more simplistic battlefield the calculations and interactions are far less complex.

    Take a look at artillery units vs walls; all the answers are out there (or I have them) and this will increase your understanding of battle mechanics dramatically. Then expand into air combat and flanking units. Flanking units contain very obvious "game points" - firstly the swordsmen deals more than half its own hp in damage, this means that swordsmen suffer from "less than half health rounding" at the end of combat; remember seeing two half dead swordsmen finish the combat as one dead and one alive? Once you've cracked it you'll see the unique factors of swordsmen, gyrocopters and other units and also why cycling has such a dramatic affect.

    Search for Allycat or Mogwai calculation/guide topics on the boards.

    Regards,
    spu00rst
    Mathematician to the Gods
    The Empire
    "Wanna run with my crew, hah?
    Rule cyberspace and crunch numbers like I do?
    They call me the king of the spreadsheets
    Got 'em printed out on my bedsheets"
  • There is much things that iclude...like Level of the wall and upgrades of those units...
    So for me is unable to do the test...
    I force balloons on every of mine battles...
  • Talista wrote:

    I'll either save you some hard work - or cause you even more.

    No battle is ever fought in isolation.

    Docs, artillery, bombs, (even gyros) all have a HUGE effect
    So does rotation.
    How active is the player? Do they rotate their troops?

    Most large alliances have already tested most of this - and in the end, it can often come down to the player preference rather than any specific superiority.

    Its why all alliances keep a large bank of CRs on their own forums - it's not just about showing victory, but to learn lessons.

    I wish you well in this exploration - but remember to consider all aspects.

    Such testing can be "expensive" but the rewards are well worth it when you get into battle.

    Kind regards
    Talista

    (Edit: as you can see, I respectfully disagree with St Joe. Why do you think it is that if you field hoplites, I'm happy to field rams. This makes a HUGE difference to overall cost)


    I must say that I agree with Talista here...the best thing to do is to cover all factors present in a standard battle.
  • ok so we must have another WW for this tests..LOL... I think the army should be balanced and it costs a lot of time to do these tests and in the end you will be disorganized for your army... In the test where hoplites were winning try to put the hoplites in the attack stance and SGs in defense stance and you will se who will win... And I also think the tests should be based in the perf/cost or just calculate how many SGs you can build with a given amount of resources and how many hoplites with that amount and then fight these numbers and see who is the best...