Determining the winner of wars

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  • Determining the winner of wars

    Hey all,

    I've been having discussions with member of ROALL about the fairness of using Damage Points to determine a winner. They contend that the winner of a war should be determined by who won the most battles (using a minimum of 1,000 GS loss as a factor in determining "valid" battles). I don't agree with this method, but do agree that "most damage wins" isn't really a good method either.

    In my option, damage should count towards determining a winner, but so should individual battle wins. So, I came up with a few formulas that could be used to determine who wins a war. I call these points "Victory Points"...the alliance who has the most VPs wins the war.

    Formula #1: Pillage damage only counts for 25%. In other words, if you pillage 80,000 in resources, that should only count for 20,000 in Victory Points (VP). I know, this one is ironic since I've used pillages to win wars in the past. Never sat right with me though.
    Formula #2: During a pillage attack, the winner adds 30% to their Damage Points (after Formula #1 is applied to resources pillaged) to determine their Victory Points. For example, I attack Player B and end up with 10,000 Military Damage Against and 80,000 in resources. That would be a total of 30,000 in VP and a bonus of 9,000 for a total of 39,000 VP. Note: if the defender wins, then their score gets the 30% bonus. This formula would apply to both ground and naval battles.
    Formula #3: During an occupy or "free town" attack, the winner adds 40% to their Damage Points (after Formula #1 is applied to resources pillaged) to determine their Victory Points. The thought here is that occupying someone is "forcing your will" against them more than just pillaging. Note: if a group sends both occupy and pillage attacks concurrently, then only the pillage rule will apply.
    So, I am curious as to what everyone thinks about these formulas. Yes, it would be a bit more work to calculate, but I think this more clearly determines a "winner" of a war. It takes into account Military Damage, devalues Pillage Damage and rewards alliances who win individual battles.

    BTW, it isn't that hard to calculate. A simple spreadsheet can be used and if we can get the Combat Converters on board, then could do this within the CR itself.

    Thoughts?


    Thanks to FallenHero for my sig
  • In my other server we're using something close to that formula...
    1 points for green color(if there are more than 120 generals lost in BOTH sides,+1 points for each 80k loot and +1 point for each 1k gen.score lost.
    Also there The end result is counted from the mods :)
    And also,there is minimum period for a war-4 monhs(still disagree with that one,but cant do much)
  • Winner is determined by who taps out first, seems pretty straight forward to me. The fight keeps going until someone finally starts begging for mercy and if the attacker takes pity on the weak, then the fight is over. Attacker wins. If the attacker can't make the defender tap out and the attacker gives up on the mission, then the defender wins.

    if a peaceful solution is agreed upon, then your both losers and someone else should declare on both of you!


  • Textual Assault wrote:

    Winner is determined by who taps out first, seems pretty straight forward to me. The fight keeps going until someone finally starts begging for mercy and if the attacker takes pity on the weak, then the fight is over. Attacker wins. If the attacker can't make the defender tap out and the attacker gives up on the mission, then the defender wins.

    if a peaceful solution is agreed upon, then your both losers and someone else should declare on both of you!



    For wars that last 2-4 weeks, if both alliances are "strong", neither is going to "tap out". I know that on other servers wars drag on for months, but if you look @ the Epsilon war threads, wars just don't last for more than a few weeks.

    Of course there is the simple solution of when one alliance says "i give up", but that just doesn't happen on this server (and is pretty rare on other servers as well, except for when wars drag on forever).


    Thanks to FallenHero for my sig
  • Gold string, I make a large army, I move to forge cities, empty stores and declare war.
    Attack someone and usually withdraw after the first round, and are hidden in another city to "defend the city" up attack again.
    That's where they meet a large army, with active forge, which rarely happens, because you can not keep large armies in each city.
    In most cases take more damage.
    If, by exception, we have more damage, because the wall and forge other (unlikely), recovered from inactive, small players, etc.. by looting.
    This was at a regulat.One alliance can have tens of thousands of members, I "win" the war forever. What sense have alliances in Ikariam and what is the spirit of the game?
    Still others can not do the same, because I emptied stores and can not go and leave uncovered cities.
    The result is always known, regardless of clan size.
    You can not lose all the battles the winner though.
    If you honor.
    Results should be established only by battles won.
    If GB attack Ireland and lost 10 million people, and Ireland lost 4 or 5 million (entire population), war is won by Ireland?
    I apologize for the speech, but I do not speak English.
  • keloganis wrote:

    If GB attack Ireland and lost 10 million people, and Ireland lost 4 or 5 million (entire population), war is won by Ireland?
    I apologize for the speech, but I do not speak English.
    Again, trying to compare Ikariam wars to real life wars breaks down. Suppose Ireland declares war on GB. Ireland wins a bunch of battles in GB even though Ireland suffers huge losses, then retreats back to Ireland and their strongholds. How would this be considered Ireland winning the war?

    I realize that ROALL feels that "wins of a battle should be the only way to determine the winner of a war", but it seems clear that ROALL is the *ONLY* alliance that believes this is a good way of determining the winner.

    At the very least, the size of the battle should be considered. A small battle between two players shouldn't count the same as a large battle between dozens of players. Going back to the "real world" battle situation, Germany won more battles during WWII than the Soviet Union did, but nobody would be foolish enough to declare Germany the winner of WWII.

    In other words, please stop comparing Ikairam wars to real wars...it really makes no sense...


    Thanks to FallenHero for my sig
  • How about if we'll combine the "total damage" rule with the "battle won" rule?
    Something like this: each 1k gen damage = 1 point but only for the green reports.
  • You lived in vain if you have not seen something like this (mid-battle):

    Display Spoiler
    erick din Miru VI, nagoya, hong kong, kyoto, osaka, tokyo, Alex0234 din marmura 2, sulf 2, marmura 1, sulf 1, Tweety4y din Miru VI, proteu din sulf 2, darkAle din Miru VI, Polis, gingis_han din Ulan Batar, yko din Miru VI, mfoxm din swarowsky, h3booms din Might_Win, Yi San din Miru VI, Lys din Miru VI, Jaguar din Polis, byby din mbc6, timex din corfu VII, GEORGIAN din Polis2, trofi din Miru VI, 5555, 222222, Glorfindel din Miru VI, DiaSniper din Polis, Briana8ioana din Polis, ada din Miru VI, andy din Miru VI, flaw din Polis, Miru VI, machele din Zup, m_iron_ss din Miru VI, teba din Miru VI, adnada din Miru VI, adnada_v3, Nikie din Polis, gnr din Miru VI, Berlin din Polis, MIRE din MIRE M2, gigi din Polis, Troianul din Polis, vlad din Lugoj 3, LAURALEE din Miru VI, dragos184 din Carara, levi din Polis, Printul Jumong din Miru VI, Burnyboy din Miru VI, fenomeno din Miru VI, MOSCA din Polis, dumdum77 din Miru VI, didisoril din Miru VI, sukaru011 din Arena, ArtioM din Sparta, kyky din ENERVANTUL LSD, Floare_Soft din Oceania
    vs
    ZoDiac din Undead, Meyac, RockNRolla, Agora, Cast Away, Silent Hitman din Fara griji, Morana din Christianmylove, laurykă31 din Oraşul ELFILOR, Nero din Ruschita, bogdan_1984 din Atlantida 6, Excalibur 5, eSpada din RockNRolla, crastavete din GuraEDeVoi, centru SPA, gogudoc din penelopis, XXL din ARICI 1, crocostin din Heraklion, Karyes, mort din Mimas, Enceladus, Iapetus, Titan, Saturn, Dione, Rhea, -Wolfy- din Pandorum, RockNRolla, Rhea, vamesu din GuraEDeVoi, RatuscaJumulita, czr1 din Pandorum, Putacioasa, GhiAAuruL din viva 7, myra din Salamina, Arakkis, VIVA - ELITE, VIVA OP W, VIVA -W-, Batacanda, Dune, Luana, Luxor, Light77 din London, cyborg din Fara griji, borgland 3, Diesel, Pinot Noir, borgland, borgland 1, Snake town, borgland 2, SeaQueen din DeepSea 7, backagain din RockNRolla, 33eab din RockNRolla, ATENTIE, Cristal, Herr Cretzu din O P, ANTI-slugi, -Forja OP-, -OP Tower-, gugu din bughea, gugumy, rausor, tomita, tomisca, gugu, ispirica, prima, creve, Dragos din Meyac, Kara din Meyac, Tuonella din RockNRolla, sergiunu din Liverpool, The Monk din GuraEDeVoi, Beniamin din Tanagra, silviucernea din Miru III, fram1978 din wta, zeceu din CARTAGINA, CALIMANESTI, rocsana din marmura, sulfuri, DuRaS din Imparatia -W-, Polis, gab78 din Pandorum, RockNRolla, ivanski din borgland, Drupi din Sulfpieta, MAXIMUSS din TAVIVPO, Livius din Polis, Karrnee din VanityFail, Pandorum, Ikar10 din CUORE 3, CUORE 6

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ram-Ship............9787(-3455). - Ram-Ship............8068(-3504).
    Ballista ship........158(-0).... - Ballista ship........145(-0)....
    Flame-thrower........121(-578).. - Flame-thrower........272(-710)..
    Catapult Ship.......3044(-0).... - Catapult Ship.......1337(-0)....
    Steam Ram...........3121(-2241). - Steam Ram...........2494(-2391).
    Mortar Ship.........2479(-0).... - Mortar Ship.........2338(-0)....
    Diving boat.........2571(-191).. - Diving boat.........1276(-394)..
    Rocket Ship..........469(-687).. - Rocket Ship..........578(-386)..
    Paddle Speedboat....3257(-0).... - Paddle Speedboat....2628(-0)....
    Balloon Carrier......860(-449).. - Balloon Carrier......884(-436)..
    Tender..............1221(-0).... - Tender..............1221(-0)....
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Generals................-110,308 - Generals................-110,280
    Damage Received........5,515,440 - Damage Received........5,514,040
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
  • keloganis wrote:

    We have not said that only victories count.
    Yes, you did: "1. it counts the number of battles won and not the damage done"

    Cavem@n wrote:

    How about if we'll combine the "total damage" rule with the "battle won" rule?
    Something like this: each 1k gen damage = 1 point but only for the green reports.
    I like that caveman is actually thinking about a possible solution rather than just saying "only wins should count". Nice idea as well...is what I was trying to get at with my more complicated formula. I agree, Damage Points only seems too simple just like I believe "battles won" is too simple. Thanks Caveman for adding to the conversation (I'm being sincere, BTW).

    Cavem@n wrote:


    You lived in vain if you have not seen something like this (mid-battle):

    <snip>
    First time I was involved in a battle like this (on another server) I was like "so cool". After a few times, however, it just becomes a silly game of "who can put the most units into a battle". Strategy is pretty much thrown out the window and it simply becomes a boring war of attrition.

    BTW, personally I think huge battles like this only highlight the importance of Damage Points. According the the current DEST vs ROALL war thread rules, the winner of the massive battle that caveman posted gets...1 point for the win. ONE POINT?!?!?!

    The alliance that wins this major battle could lose the war by just losing two small (1,000 GS min) battles. This really makes no sense at all given how Ikariam wars are waged...


    Thanks to FallenHero for my sig