Scientific Future - Revisited - Option A - More Research Points

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  • Scientific Future - Revisited - Option A - More Research Points

    General Information:

    It has been a long time since I was last inspired to donate an idea. I once swore I wouldn't do it again - but I do get the feeling that things are slowly changing for the better within GF. So lets go down this path again.

    I have given a fair amount of thought over the years - as how the Scientific Future research might be improved - to give it that 'something' that will make it viable in comparison to other future researches. The following are the results of my musings. This is one of three configurations - each applying different approaches.

    Research Name: (What is the name of the research?)

    Scientific Future

    Research Information:

    Same as present: The smartest brains in the world are working to answer the big question: Why are we here? Why is everything the way it is? And once again we are one step closer to enlightenment.

    What does it do: (What does the research do?)

    It increases research points (in a less lacklustre fashion)

    How does it do it: (How does the research do it?)

    +20 Research Points per Town per hour, and
    2% more research points

    Leveling Features: (Is there more than one level of research?)

    Repeating.

    Acquirement Statistics:

    Research Points Cost: (How much does it cost to research?)

    Similar to present.

    Research Required: (Where does it come in the current researches?)

    Similar to present.

    Suggestion Reason:

    Why are you suggesting this research? Think carefully about this one, most suggestions will get heavy critical feedback. Make sure you give a detailed reason and your suggestion solves the issue that you think there is.

    Every intermediate-to-advanced Ikariam player is familiar with Scientific Future.

    Of these - any player of a strategic disposition is aware that this research is not only quite underpowered in relation to other researches - but it is also counter-productive to the aim that it purports to solve (spend research points to get research points slightly faster - but watch out because it'll take a highly unfeasable amount of time to catch up on the time lost researching this research.

    In the case of this variation I am sticking to the essential spirit of the current model - except that I am providing more boost and more scope.

    The above mentioned fixed boost equates to a 2% boost in research for 100 scientists. It has the advantages of:
    • Being a fixed raise for all towns regardless of academy or scientists (Think of it as a decentralization renaissance with lots of little start-up experimentation going on)
    • Making it less essential to have research academies in any town
    • Therefore sweetening the deal for players who wish to sink research points into getting research points.


    The downside is that this format still 'technically' results in spending research points for a small improvement in the gaining of research points. I do suspect however that this upgrade will make the time when such research pays off a little less unviable.

    Added- I have since considered this suggestion to only address the short-term viability of the future research (since max level for future research is 25 - hence there will come a point when all the research point bonuses in the world will be pointless unless Game Forge starts allowing players to trade research points for gold in the Trade Post.

    Render/Image/Screenshot:

    Do you have a picture/render/screenshot of what it might look like? A visual aide always helps an idea come to life.

    Well no but it can be compared to Economic Future's +20 max population for visualization purposes

    Special Notes:

    Nothing else to add.

    EDIT Added note from post 19 - Hera-

    66164 & 66099


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  • Voted YES
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  • Lifetree wrote:

    I vote yes, but...

    James Cauchi wrote:

    +20 Research Points per Town per hour

    I would get a maximum value for this: number of the Scientists in that city.


    Thank you kindly for the feedback Lifetree :)

    If I understand correctly you are effectivelysuggesting that only those towns with an academy and 20+ scientists in it get this bonus.

    Keeping in mind that the core Scientific Future bonus of 2% can only be fully utilized if you have active academies in all towns, I would suggest that the restriction you suggest is not necessary.

    Actually it would allow for playing styles to eschew academies more if they so choose (they are losting the 2% bonus on those academies so why not?

    Ultimately it balances out and should be welcome improvement to the present Scientific Future (even if the concept of giving up research points to improve research point generation is a little dubious in its implementation thus far).

    Thank you however for the feedback :)


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  • So lvl 5 SF results in 100 rps per hr per town?

    The only tradeoff is that you need to research this to lvl 5? To get 800-1200 more rps per hr for free?

    Wouldnt doing this make it a little too easy to get the other futures? Or did I misunderstand what you were saying?
    On July 12th, 2015, the 'gentle giant' lost his 14 year war with cancer. We are honored that he served as our SGO. RIP dear husband.
  • bringiton212 wrote:

    So lvl 5 SF results in 100 rps per hr per town?

    The only tradeoff is that you need to research this to lvl 5? To get 800-1200 more rps per hr for free?

    Wouldnt doing this make it a little too easy to get the other futures? Or did I misunderstand what you were saying?


    Hello Bringiton212 and thank you for your feedback. :)

    Yes, as the above suggestion stands, at the price of sinking a large amount of research points into Scientific Future (and sticking to the origional format of researhc points for research points) I do feel that one way of increasing viability would be the addition of a fixed bonus in research point generation per town (representing an enlightened population curious and eager to push boundaries).

    It is precisely because I remain on the same 'research points for research points production bonus' theme that I am not particularly bothered about Level 5 Scientific Future generating 100 research points per hour per town (for many players this is equivalent to 80-odd scientists working in the town for free).

    However if certain players feel that +20 is too strong (in spite of the large number of research points sunk to get it) then perhaps this is a good opportunity to determine what amount of bonus would actually be more balanced (+10?). I admit that I have not yet got my mathematician's hat on if anybody might like to give a quick crack at comparisons ^^

    The important thing is that Scientific Future gets 'some' kind of a boost.

    Thanks again for your feedback :)


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  • It would be a huge help if some research players gave their input. I am leaning towards a No vote though. I wont cast it until we do hear from them. They may see something I am not.

    We get 300k rps per experiment. This idea would essentially give players 2-4 experiments for free every hour. The only downside is that they need to research SF to level 5. I dont see the challenge in it. What I see is how it makes researching so easy that players lose interest in doing it. Only a special kind of player has the dedication necessary to reach those upper levels of futures. If we make the challenge too easy, is it enough to keep them logging in or do we potentially lose a whole group of players?

    I like the idea of adding an extra incentive to SF. I just dont want to lose players.
    On July 12th, 2015, the 'gentle giant' lost his 14 year war with cancer. We are honored that he served as our SGO. RIP dear husband.
  • bringiton212 wrote:

    It would be a huge help if some research players gave their input. I am leaning towards a No vote though. I wont cast it until we do hear from them. They may see something I am not.

    We get 300k rps per experiment. This idea would essentially give players 2-4 experiments for free every hour. The only downside is that they need to research SF to level 5. I dont see the challenge in it. What I see is how it makes researching so easy that players lose interest in doing it. Only a special kind of player has the dedication necessary to reach those upper levels of futures. If we make the challenge too easy, is it enough to keep them logging in or do we potentially lose a whole group of players?

    I like the idea of adding an extra incentive to SF. I just dont want to lose players.


    Speaking for myself, with maxed out Optician I can presently convert 300,000 glass into 220,589 research points

    If this idea were to be implemented at its present value of +20 fixed value per town then a standard high level player with 10 towns would generate +1,000 research points per hour free of charge (at the investment of 10 futures).

    At this rate, every 22 hours of level 10 scientific future would incur a bonus in research points equal to one experiment.

    While from experience I can assure you that no single experiment is going to get a research researched, I agree that the number presented may be too high. :)

    Now the question is whether spending who knows how many research points for the above bonus in research points is truly over powered, balanced or still not quite sufficient. I am leaning towards overpowered and I know that this is not everybody's cup of tea - hence the presentation of three parallel suggestions (thats how I roll :thumbup: ).

    I do appreciate your feedback and echo your wish to hear the opinions of other research players. :)

    How about halving the bonus to +10 research points per town per hour? Better in your opinion?


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    The post was edited 2 times, last by James Cauchi ().

  • Yeah, my tingling brain waves knew what i was thinking when i said 2-4 experiments per hr but my finger didnt translate into english like i wanted them to. Sorry about that.

    Lets hold this discussion until a science guy sees it. Its hard to make decisions that affect them without their input. :(
    On July 12th, 2015, the 'gentle giant' lost his 14 year war with cancer. We are honored that he served as our SGO. RIP dear husband.
  • i voted yes...:-)
    i couldnt help myself...lol
    i love the idea, and it would stop me from dozing my acds in every town...
    no joke, i was planning to knock them down and start converting for rsp...
    ( i put that on hold due to the extra spot for building came around)
    i currently have only 4 people in my acds (total) ...( it cost to darn much to max out the acds in all my citys with people)
    if this passes, it would make it easyer on me...lol
    i like it the way it is...
    F.Y.I. i have 6 acds and all are at lvl25.. and my future in science is lvl9.
    kp

    The post was edited 1 time, last by king of petal ().

  • Your calculations are wrong:,
    20 per hour for 10 towns, and level 10 future is 20x10x10 or 2000 research per hour bonus.. or will take about 110.25 hours to equal 1 experiment. Over 4.5 days!


    Putting it another way since I am an end game researcher: I have 12 towns with max academies. I have max level 25 sci future. I use technocracy and premium features. Because of all this,I produce 368*12*1.64*1.05*1.2 or 9,125.2224 research per hour. That is 219,005 research per day.

    If this were to be implemented, it would raise to 15,125.2224 research per hour (12 towns *20 per town*25 sci future=6000 research per hour) or a total of 363,005 research per day. While that would effectively increase production by 65%, it's still nothing compared to experiments.

    A single experiment nets 220,588 with optician as previously discussed. One experiment is better then all my scientists and upgrades can do in a day. Even with your bonus, that's only 1.65 experiments a day (or 11.5 a week).


    Look at it a different way. If you only experiment and for sake of argument, you use your piracy winnings. Lets say you got 1st place once. With 12 towns, each with 4x40 warehouses. (I know, not likely, but it's for sake of argument) They'll net you 76900 protected each resource per town or 4,614,000 total protected and thus 50,754,000 resources. If all that is funneled into crystal, and then used for experiments on a town(s) with optician, you will get 37,319,077 research. This is just shy of 170 experiments, or equal to 170.4 days of research with current max allowed. It's also enough to get Military (Seafaring or Economic) Futures from level 0 to 11 and 1/3 way complete with level 12. That's only one round of piracy!


    Really, resource production has greatly outpaced what can be researched. Normal island production can net much more then max research.


    On a final note. If you did the math, you'll find out that the max benefit the future can give normally is an increase of 9.2736 research per hour (368 scientists * 1.2 premium *1.05 technocracy) per town. By adding 20, you are really just effectively changing the percentage from 2% to about 6% per level.
  • Mogwai® wrote:

    Your calculations are wrong:,
    20 per hour for 10 towns, and level 10 future is 20x10x10 or 2000 research per hour bonus.. or will take about 110.25 hours to equal 1 experiment. Over 4.5 days!


    OK that was an embarrassing illustration of why the math shouldn't be rushed. :dash: Thanks. ^^


    Putting it another way since I am an end game researcher: I have 12 towns with max academies. I have max level 25 sci future. I use technocracy and premium features. Because of all this,I produce 368*12*1.64*1.05*1.2 or 9,125.2224 research per hour. That is 219,005 research per day.


    And I thought I was pretty research-centric. 8| I stand corrected and thank you kindly for the (math-reliable) illustration.


    If this were to be implemented, it would raise to 15,125.2224 research per hour (12 towns *20 per town*25 sci future=6000 research per hour) or a total of 363,005 research per day. While that would effectively increase production by 65%, it's still nothing compared to experiments.

    A single experiment nets 220,588 with optician as previously discussed. One experiment is better then all my scientists and upgrades can do in a day. Even with your bonus, that's only 1.65 experiments a day (or 11.5 a week).



    Look at it a different way. If you only experiment and for sake of argument, you use your piracy winnings. Lets say you got 1st place once. With 12 towns, each with 4x40 warehouses. (I know, not likely, but it's for sake of argument) They'll net you 76900 protected each resource per town or 4,614,000 total protected and thus 50,754,000 resources. If all that is funneled into crystal, and then used for experiments on a town(s) with optician, you will get 37,319,077 research. This is just shy of 170 experiments, or equal to 170.4 days of research with current max allowed. It's also enough to get Military (Seafaring or Economic) Futures from level 0 to 11 and 1/3 way complete with level 12. That's only one round of piracy!


    And this illustrates why my neglect of piracy was a strategic error ^_~


    Really, resource production has greatly outpaced what can be researched. Normal island production can net much more then max research.


    Which is why I am beginning to believe that the best way forward for scientific research might be an entirely different direction.


    On a final note. If you did the math, you'll find out that the max benefit the future can give normally is an increase of 9.2736 research per hour (368 scientists * 1.2 premium *1.05 technocracy) per town. By adding 20, you are really just effectively changing the percentage from 2% to about 6% per level.


    Hats off for an impressively calculative post. I shall have to revisit this later today. Thanks. :)


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  • Thank you, Mogwai. Thats what I needed to see to really understand this suggestion. I appreciate you taking the time to work it all.
    On July 12th, 2015, the 'gentle giant' lost his 14 year war with cancer. We are honored that he served as our SGO. RIP dear husband.
  • I like the idea, but I still think the rewards need some tweaking to be make this viable.

    James Cauchi wrote:

    +20 Research Points per Town per hour, and
    2% more research points


    The +20 RP per town per hour suggested here equates to +240 RP per hour at max (12) cities. Since that's a static boost, one could effectively run an empire with a single Academy and zero scientists and still get same boost as an empire with zero scientists and an Academy in every town. I have a few suggestions for an alternative to this.

    The first would be a simple matter of switching out "Town" for "Academy" in the bonus. This way the +240 PR bonus is still available, but only if the player has an academy in each town. The problem here is there's nothing stopping the player from just dropping a lvl 1 Academy and reaping the rewards.

    A twist on this would be something like +1 RP per Academy per level in the empire. With this option, an empire with a single maxed Academy would reap +32 RP per hour, whereas an player who worked for 12 maxed Academies would receive +384 RP per hour.

    The max possible boost has an increase here, but I think it's worth it given the amount of work a player would have to contribute in order to achieve it. There is of course also many options between having one maxed Academy, and having 12 maxed Academies, so there's a lot of wiggle room regarding player choice, dependant on their playstyle, and what they deem most important to their needs.

    This also makes the 2% boost more attractive to the player, since the more scientists they have working, the more benefit they reap from the 2% boost. It's a "bit of profit now, bit of profit later" kind of thing. The player is encouraged to build up their Academies in order to obtain the static boost they deem most appropriate to their playstyle, and the 2% is effected due to the amount of levels (and thus scientist capacity) they decide on.

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    The post was edited 2 times, last by Wyr3d ().

  • Wyr3d wrote:


    I like the idea, but I still think the rewards need some tweaking to be make this viable.


    Greetings Wyr3d and thank you for the feedback. :)


    The +20 RP per town per hour suggested here equates to +240 RP per hour at max (12) cities. Since that's a static boost, one could effectively run an empire with a single Academy and zero scientists and still get same boost as an empire with zero scientists and an Academy in every town. I have a few suggestions for an alternative to this.


    It is excellent that you are thinking about other ways that this might work :c)

    All of the above are consequences that I had taken into consideration. With the +20/ town model it becomes possible for those not focusing on research to re-purpose some of the slots currently dedicated to research academies while still churning out a respectable amount of points.

    Doing so means that the towns without academies would lose out on the 2% increase in research points anyway - hence the format still favours those who invest in and fill academies.

    You may be interested to hear that I have since considered this suggestion to only address the short-term viability of the future research (since max level for future research is 25 - hence there will come a point when all the research point bonuses in the world will be pointless*. Kindly note that the present Scientific Future Improvement suggestion is presently linked in my signature. :)

    *Unless Game Forge starts allowing players to trade research points for gold in the Trade Post.

    However I am interested in the proposals that you make. :thumbup:


    The first would be a simple matter of switching out "Town" for "Academy" in the bonus. This way the +240 PR bonus is still available, but only if the player has an academy in each town. The problem here is there's nothing stopping the player from just dropping a lvl 1 Academy and reaping the rewards.


    That is true - and it would be a shame to have players build a level 1 academy just for the boost. However it is another possibility.


    A twist on this would be something like +1 RP per Academy per level in the empire. With this option, an empire with a single maxed Academy would reap +32 RP per hour, whereas an player who worked for 12 maxed Academies would receive +384 RP per hour.

    The max possible boost has an increase here, but I think it's worth it given the amount of work a player would have to contribute in order to achieve it. There is of course also many options between having one maxed Academy, and having 12 maxed Academies, so there's a lot of wiggle room regarding player choice, dependant on their playstyle, and what they deem most important to their needs.

    This also makes the 2% boost more attractive to the player, since the more scientists they have working, the more benefit they reap from the 2% boost. It's a "bit of profit now, bit of profit later" kind of thing. The player is encouraged to build up their Academies in order to obtain the static boost they deem most appropriate to their playstyle, and the 2% is effected due to the amount of levels (and thus scientist capacity) they decide on.


    I do like where you are going with this suggestion. The one niggle that gets me is that this shift would result in less flexible applicability to non-dedicated research players. If one looks at Economic Future - the bonus is consistent and constant.

    Another possibility would be a compromise approach of:

    +3% research points, and
    +10 research points/ SF/ Town (Sitting empty academies seem like a wasteful use of space)

    Thanks again for the feedback here :)


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