Scientific Future - Revisited - Option C - More Efficiency (Resource Storage)

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  • Scientific Future - Revisited - Option C - More Efficiency (Resource Storage)

    General Information:

    It has been a long time since I was last inspired to donate an idea. I once swore I wouldn't do it again - but I do get the feeling that things are slowly changing for the better within GF. So lets go down this path again.

    I have given a fair amount of thought over the years - as how the Scientific Future research might be improved - to give it that 'something' that will make it viable in comparison to other future researches. The following are the results of my musings. This is one of three configurations - each applying different approaches.

    Research Name: (What is the name of the research?)

    Scientific Future

    Research Information:

    Same as present: The smartest brains in the world are working to answer the big question: Why are we here? Why is everything the way it is? Once again we are one step closer to enlightenment and good governance.

    What does it do: (What does the research do?)

    It increases research points
    It also increases town max/ protected resource storage levels

    How does it do it: (How does the research do it?)

    2% more research points, and
    Increased town max resources by 1%, and
    Increased town protected resources by 5%


    Leveling Features: (Is there more than one level of research?)

    Repeating.

    Acquirement Statistics:

    Research Points Cost: (How much does it cost to research?)

    Similar to present.

    Research Required: (Where does it come in the current researches?)

    Similar to present.

    Suggestion Reason:

    Why are you suggesting this research? Think carefully about this one, most suggestions will get heavy critical feedback. Make sure you give a detailed reason and your suggestion solves the issue that you think there is.

    Every intermediate-to-advanced Ikariam player is familiar with Scientific Future.

    Of these - any player of a strategic disposition is aware that this research is not only quite underpowered in relation to other researches - but it is also counter-productive to the aim that it purports to solve (spend research points to get research points slightly faster - but watch out because it'll take a highly unfeasable amount of time to catch up on the time lost researching this research.

    In the case of this variation I am attempting to loosen the trap-like feel of this research by introducing a secondary benefit not directly related to research points.

    The above mentioned bonus of 1% to effective maximum town resource storage levels (and 5% for protected levels) will certainly make players think twice about how futile this future actually is.

    Why resource storage? This actually takes a page from Athene's wonder - and in more direct terms represents governments finding more innovative ways to store resources (or better refining them to take up less room).

    While the max storage space increases are nothing to sneeze at - I believe that the increases are in the butter zone of being optimal - not overpowered.

    Render/Image/Screenshot:

    Do you have a picture/render/screenshot of what it might look like? A visual aide always helps an idea come to life.

    Well no but each level of Scientific future would result in between +10-15K max resources for most advanced players. Considering the self-defeating nature of the current future and the expense of investing in the future - its quite a balanced proposition overall.

    Special Notes:

    Another possibility involves a fixed increase of Diplomacy points - though this does not warrant its own suggestion thread.


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  • Why the heck would an SF affect buildings? In addition people should have to learn how to build proper warehouses instead of relying on SFs to help them along. This also gives a larger advantage to big players over small players.


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  • Voted NO
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  • Kaleg, EVERYTHING in the game gives advantage to big players over small ones. High gold income, huge resource production, enormous armies... and why should it be like so? Why should we always make things good for small players? Big players have been small once, and have made their way with strength, strategy, sacrifises... if we stare only at the idea to help small players, we'll get to nowhere. I'm not saying small players are to be neglected, but big players also deserve their profits. Now, back to the suggestion, why would this favour big players, when no-one small would ever attack (or be able to attack) someone so big?

    Warehouses protect almost nothing from your resources. They are balanced, yes, but this suggestion will bring a delicate change to the current gameplay, without making anything overpowered.

    YES
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Coccho ().

  • Coccho, everything does benefit larger players, but not in such a manner. A small player can get gold, just as much as a larger one. A small player can transport goods, just not as much as a larger one with more tradeships. But they have the same use of each thing. This however gives an advantage which cannot be matched equally. It is a whole different type of benefit. And you silly guy for saying small players wouldn't attack larger ones. There are cases and there are cases in which larger players attack smaller players forcing retaliation.


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  • Kaleg Nar wrote:

    Why the heck would an SF affect buildings? In addition people should have to learn how to build proper warehouses instead of relying on SFs to help them along. This also gives a larger advantage to big players over small players.


    Hello Kaleg Nar and thank you for your feedback.

    If I may modify your question - Why the heck would a Scientific Future 'specifically' affect storage levels 'only'?

    The truth is that there are a bunch of things that 'could' be rolled into Scientific Future to make it more viable as a research:

    • More research points
    • Higher building max levels (This probably is worth its own suggestion thread alone)
    • More resource production
    • Resource use reduction effect
    • Improved unit powers (offence/ defense)
    • Higher resource storage maxes
    • Diplomacy Points
    • Crystal Burn
    • Etc.


    While a number of these would be great to roll into it - such would make the future too powerful - and so I find myself presenting specific advantages piecemeal.

    Furthermore since this is a % increase players would still need warehouses and dumps and such - they would just have an extra 1% of Max storage per scientific future level - and 2% more protected goods.

    As for the argument of favourign large players... this suggestion is not aimed specifically at large players and it serves also the player who gets to future research stage.

    Thanks for your feedback however. :)

    Mogwai® wrote:


    I understand the max storage, but what do you mean with 2% more protected? Are you saying the normal 6% of warehouse protection become 56% with level 25, or are you saying the 480 per warehouse level becomes 720? If the latter, it's still useless.


    I had meant 2% on the 480 but you are correct - that is relatively meaningless and level 20 Scientific future would only increase safe levels by 40% (weak considering they are low.

    An increase to 5% would be more meaningful and still not over the top. In a scenario of Scientific Future 20, a town with 2x level 40 warehouses would enjoy a doubling of 'safe goods' to approximately 77,000 units (up from 38,500). Not unbalancing considering it takes 2x fully utilized town slots.

    Would it be possible to modify the original suggestion accordingly to include 5% rather than 2% protected goods? :)


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    The post was edited 1 time, last by James Cauchi ().

  • Mogwai® wrote:

    I understand the max storage, but what do you mean with 2% more protected? Are you saying the normal 6% of warehouse protection become 56% with level 25, or are you saying the 480 per warehouse level becomes 720? If the latter, it's still useless.


    Thank you kindly for the assist Jake. Yes it looks great. :thumbsup:

    For players still not certain about how this future variant might affect their cities - they should look up one of their best-built towns. Got a current max storage of 1 million goods? Investing in 25 levels of Scientific Future would 'also' increase that to 1,250,000 max goods. If this town also has 2x level 40 warehouses then your max protected resources would be approximately 96,500 goods - a big improvement on the present 38,500 in protected good levels.

    Thats good news, especially considering the massive investment in research points. Good news is that at that point those +2 bonuses to research would also be accellerating other research along.

    Its something more than 'just' research point production rates for your research points. ;)


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  • I am sorry James, but no.

    It would essentially allow players to become lazy about logging in. Its hard enough to keep players logging in when they reach this level unless they are pirates, pillagers or fighters. They are waiting days for resources to be mined. If they can double that protection and activate padlock on top of it, they will feel safe and safe means not logging in to keep an eye on things. Not logging in leads to inactivity.

    Thats my biggest concern.

    My next concern is its affect on piracy.
    On July 12th, 2015, the 'gentle giant' lost his 14 year war with cancer. We are honored that he served as our SGO. RIP dear husband.
  • bringiton212 wrote:

    I am sorry James, but no.

    It would essentially allow players to become lazy about logging in. Its hard enough to keep players logging in when they reach this level unless they are pirates, pillagers or fighters. They are waiting days for resources to be mined. If they can double that protection and activate padlock on top of it, they will feel safe and safe means not logging in to keep an eye on things. Not logging in leads to inactivity.

    Thats my biggest concern.

    My next concern is its affect on piracy.


    Thank you for your feedback Bringiton212 :)

    I must admit that I had not considered the possibility that this suggestion's implementation might allow players to get lazy or otherwise inactive. Naturally that would not do.

    On the other hand I have heard of players quitting Ikariam because aggressive players kept them locked down and they simply didn't have an adequate resource pool to keep those towns at a reasonable level of operation.

    Still - this is an opportunity to consider ways that the suggestion might be improved to cater for such concerns.

    Possibilities include:

    • Foregoing the protection and simply upping the max levels to 2% rather than 1% (protection bonus 0), or
    • Rolling in another secondary bonus instead of the protection bonus - such as increased building maximum levels by 1 per Scientific Future)


    Alternatively to remain within the origional format. Thoughts? :)


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  • Increasing warehouse protection levels is not going to stop players from quitting if they get locked down. It just gives pillagers more incentive to keep them locked down.

    The main problem with increasing max building levels is that we dont have the storage capacity to reach them. A math guru would need to run the numbers on whether that is possible if we increase dumps and carpenters by x amount of levels. I dont think GF would go for that though. If they find a solution to our building limitations, they will release it for everyone to take advantage of. No hoops to jump through. They would be seen as superheroes. :D

    There is something about SF that has been tingling my brain waves. Someone mentioned something awhile ago about how it doesnt affect -I want to say experiments, but I know there is more to it. I just cant remember what. If we approach SF from that angle, I think its the way to go on this. I just cant remember exactly what was said or which suggestion we discussed it in. Hopefully, they will see this thread and pop in to tell us or someone else will know what I am trying to remember but cant.
    On July 12th, 2015, the 'gentle giant' lost his 14 year war with cancer. We are honored that he served as our SGO. RIP dear husband.
  • bringiton212 wrote:

    Increasing warehouse protection levels is not going to stop players from quitting if they get locked down. It just gives pillagers more incentive to keep them locked down.


    On this point I think we will need to agree to disagree as I do know of players who have quit after weeks and months of blockades and occupation. Increased warehouses won't exactly solve this problem but it would increase the resilience of a town to 'shutting down'.


    The main problem with increasing max building levels is that we dont have the storage capacity to reach them. A math guru would need to run the numbers on whether that is possible if we increase dumps and carpenters by x amount of levels. I dont think GF would go for that though. If they find a solution to our building limitations, they will release it for everyone to take advantage of. No hoops to jump through. They would be seen as superheroes. :D


    Increasing a few levels of Carpenter or another resource consumption reducing building would certainly open possibilities to players.

    Increasing max build levels by 1 per Scientific Future would mean level 42 Carpenters, Naval Archives, Wineries and level 50 Warehouses at Scientific Future 10.

    It would have a big knock-on effect but then again level 10 Future Research isn't cheap either and its not like the buildings aren't getting paid for.


    There is something about SF that has been tingling my brain waves. Someone mentioned something awhile ago about how it doesnt affect -I want to say experiments, but I know there is more to it. I just cant remember what. If we approach SF from that angle, I think its the way to go on this. I just cant remember exactly what was said or which suggestion we discussed it in. Hopefully, they will see this thread and pop in to tell us or someone else will know what I am trying to remember but cant.


    Are you suggesting having the +2% also affect the research points gained from experiments? (aren't they already? I really don't know) :?:

    Thanks for your feedback again. Your taking this suggestion to task helps to make it stronger. :)


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  • James Cauchi wrote:

    Are you suggesting having the +2% also affect the research points gained from experiments? (aren't they already? I really don't know) :?:

    Answer is no. .. none of the researches effect experiments. Other then researching them, and optician (allowing less crystal per research, thus overall more research per crystal)


    There has been the argument that sci future should decrease research cost by 2% per level vs increase production by 2% per level. Just like how military and seafaring does. Think of it this way, max military is a total reduction of 64% or 36% of nominal cost. Thus you could have a military that's 2.78x bigger for the same price. max scifuture is 1.64 x bigger then nominal. And experiments don't change with the research.


    As for prices. I'll look into it, but consider that if it gets to level 25, that's +25 levels for carp, arch, optician, fireworks, winery, etc... Or a total reduction of (14 from research, 32 base building levels, and 25 from research, or 71% reduction. Assuming you can build level 65 warehouses, and level 65 dumps (not doing the cost estimate), you can store up to 8.32 million resources each or allow up to a level 45 town hall, 55 barracks, ~40 academy, ~54 trading port, ~60 town wall, and even level 13 palace/GRs
  • Mogwai® wrote:


    Answer is no. .. none of the researches effect experiments. Other then researching them, and optician (allowing less crystal per research, thus overall more research per crystal)


    There has been the argument that sci future should decrease research cost by 2% per level vs increase production by 2% per level. Just like how military and seafaring does. Think of it this way, max military is a total reduction of 64% or 36% of nominal cost. Thus you could have a military that's 2.78x bigger for the same price. max scifuture is 1.64 x bigger then nominal. And experiments don't change with the research.


    Thank you for clarifying Mogwai® :)

    Looking at this, and truly letting the max 25 levels of research sink in makes me further believe that the best way forward for Scientific Future would involve something that is either not 'just' research points based, or which permits for a new purpose in end-game levels (with this new purpose coming into its own as the levels stack - and ultimately balancing the other futures in power at that point when researches are fully researched).


    As for prices. I'll look into it, but consider that if it gets to level 25, that's +25 levels for carp, arch, optician, fireworks, winery, etc... Or a total reduction of (14 from research, 32 base building levels, and 25 from research, or 71% reduction. Assuming you can build level 65 warehouses, and level 65 dumps (not doing the cost estimate), you can store up to 8.32 million resources each or allow up to a level 45 town hall, 55 barracks, ~40 academy, ~54 trading port, ~60 town wall, and even level 13 palace/GRs


    Yes I am considering this possibility - and at this point it is a discussion of 'how' best to improve Scientific Research, which direction to take.

    Thanks for the feedback! :)


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  • A 200k player can easily be doing futures. (At least I think so.) And on one account I think I'll be starting them at 150-170k. That's non-ambro amd would be the earliest. Most start futures 300-500k.


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  • It really depends. I usually reach futures when I hit about 90K, but I dont focus on building too much. Usually its 'oh I have a lot of this. What can I do with it?' Stockpiles of sulfur usually mean its time for a GR upgrade, for example. Its not until I reach futures that I start focusing on building up my score.

    Maybe a 2% building cost reduction instead of an extra building level, James? Someone would need to do the math to compare the 2 and not me. We have already seen an example of why I usually run to the accountants, engineers and IT guys to look over my math at work. lol Before settling on one or the other, we should see which makes it more appealling for players to stick around to achieve lvl 25 SF. I am thinking that a new building level is probably best as it looks like from Mogwai's explanation, it would open up more possibilities. But we should probably compare the 2 to be sure. If its decided to go with an affect on building, I would like to see end-game players able to get that 13th town. After all the years many of them have put into building their accounts, it would be nice to see them rewarded for it, especially if they have stuck around long enough to reach lvl 25 SF.
    On July 12th, 2015, the 'gentle giant' lost his 14 year war with cancer. We are honored that he served as our SGO. RIP dear husband.