What do you think?

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

Dear users,

please note that we have a new forum now. You'll find it here.

The old forum is set to read-only mode now.

Your Ikariam Team

  • An interesting discussion. A few thoughts.

    In reference to the original post - a player who, following being kicked from an alliance, reports an alliance member for foul language that was not derogatory in his or her regards should be dismissed by GOs...

    This on the grounds that the reporting player is no longer in a situation where he or she needs to worry about further foul language (since he or she no longer has access to circulars).

    In reference to communications rule breaking - In the event that an alliance states on its external page that foul language is to be expected within the alliance, and that members consent to an environment where foul language exists, then reports on circular messages within that alliance should fairly be disregarded (unless such language be deemed to be derogatory to the individual concerned).

    This would follow the same spirit in which foreign-language alliances need to mention their language preferences on their external pages.

    In the event that no mention exists on the external alliance page but such exists on the internal alliance page, then I would consider such to be a valid mitigating circumstance. An on-going culture of foul language less so but so nonetheless.

    On the inappropriate use of reports - such should not be tolerated and should be considered a minor offense. An inappropriate use would concern players wishing to exact revenge through use of the report feature - or players who use reports to get players banned during conflicts.

    On permanent bans - An unrelated note. They are evil and should not ever be resorted to. :!:

    These are my thoughts for the moment.


    GAME FORGE!
    Please reconsider your permanent ban practices!

    :!: Contribute to & Vote on: :!:
    (Suggestion: The lit match has been dropped. Its too late now... :thumbdown: )

    The post was edited 1 time, last by James Cauchi: After-thought on permanent bans ().

  • anynamewildo wrote:

    James Cauchi wrote:

    On permanent bans - An unrelated note. They are evil and should not ever be resorted to. :!:


    For once, we agree James.

    Now get back in the kitchen and make Bro_Gun a double meat sandwich and hold the pickle.


    We logged on to find people we used to know on here and see if they want to come join our Destiny clan. Lo and behold! We are both unbanned. Unbelievable. Apparently, the servers have a time period the mods don't know about where you get un-perma banned. Too bad the game, and especially the boards, suck now - due to the mods.

    Vergry! They've gotten worse since my day, but this behavior you are complaining about in this thread is precisely what killed this game that had around 20 servers each on .org and .com back in my day. They have only like 5 on each now. This extremely lame "protect people that refuse to be responsible for themselves" nonsense just absolutely ruined everything about this game. Strangely enough, this same load of horse hockey is being pushed in real life too. If you don't like it here, you're going to hate it on a college campus, for example.

    Good luck man! I'm sure I'll be re-banned shortly for some excuse that would earn the mod a bloody nose in my neighborhood.
    .


    .ORG Epsilon [QUIT] (former leader, now banned)

    Haven't been banned since 2009!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by FatManLittleBoy ().

  • but this behavior you are complaining about in this thread is precisely what killed this game that had around 20 servers each on .org and .com back in my day. They have only like 5 on each now. This extremely lame "protect people that refuse to be responsible for themselves" nonsense just absolutely ruined everything about this game.
    Would you be so kind and tell us more - how did it kill the game?
    Found a bug or think something doesn't work in the game? Don't be afraid and write a ticket or PM me! :)


    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
    (c) Albert Einstein
  • Draxo wrote:

    but this behavior you are complaining about in this thread is precisely what killed this game that had around 20 servers each on .org and .com back in my day. They have only like 5 on each now. This extremely lame "protect people that refuse to be responsible for themselves" nonsense just absolutely ruined everything about this game.
    Would you be so kind and tell us more - how did it kill the game?


    By pushing away older, paying players because they felt like they were (and are) being treated like children and singled out. Those are the regular ambrosia buyers, the ones who enjoy creating and joining in on the sense of community within the game and/or board.

    Or maybe I've just gotten a little out of touch with everything?

    How could I ever have a bad dream when the nightmare is me?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by S.W.E ().

  • S.W.E wrote:

    Draxo wrote:

    but this behavior you are complaining about in this thread is precisely what killed this game that had around 20 servers each on .org and .com back in my day. They have only like 5 on each now. This extremely lame "protect people that refuse to be responsible for themselves" nonsense just absolutely ruined everything about this game.
    Would you be so kind and tell us more - how did it kill the game?


    By pushing away older, paying players because they felt like they were (and are) being treated like children and singled out. Those are the regular ambrosia buyers, the ones who enjoy creating and joining in on the sense of community within the game and/or board.

    Or maybe I've just gotten a little out of touch with everything?


    You're on target SWE. I'll attempt to clarify.

    The game was never engaging enough to get people to play just to see the game. What made the game fun was the drama and clash of personalities on the boards and in-game circulars. This gave reason to building up big, joining with like-minded people, and going on a campaign.

    When GameForge started allowing "tiny tyrants" to become MODs and GOs, who stifled the mechanisms for that drama because "there might be someone out there who's offended", what they did was weaponize speech so that you could eliminate an enemy by claiming to be a victim and getting the person banned. They re-invented a version of the Gestapo. Once it became game-ending to strongly express a differing view, using adult language, the interesting people quit playing.

    Now the game is dead. The only reason Anynamewildo and I hopped on here was to try to find some of our old Alliance-mates to see if any of them are playing Destiny so we can go do some raids. It was surprising to see James Cauchi still on here. This confirms my belief that he's actually just an IRC robot.
    .


    .ORG Epsilon [QUIT] (former leader, now banned)

    Haven't been banned since 2009!

  • FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    S.W.E wrote:

    Draxo wrote:

    but this behavior you are complaining about in this thread is precisely what killed this game that had around 20 servers each on .org and .com back in my day. They have only like 5 on each now. This extremely lame "protect people that refuse to be responsible for themselves" nonsense just absolutely ruined everything about this game.
    Would you be so kind and tell us more - how did it kill the game?


    By pushing away older, paying players because they felt like they were (and are) being treated like children and singled out. Those are the regular ambrosia buyers, the ones who enjoy creating and joining in on the sense of community within the game and/or board.

    Or maybe I've just gotten a little out of touch with everything?


    You're on target SWE. I'll attempt to clarify.

    The game was never engaging enough to get people to play just to see the game. What made the game fun was the drama and clash of personalities on the boards and in-game circulars. This gave reason to building up big, joining with like-minded people, and going on a campaign.

    When GameForge started allowing "tiny tyrants" to become MODs and GOs, who stifled the mechanisms for that drama because "there might be someone out there who's offended", what they did was weaponize speech so that you could eliminate an enemy by claiming to be a victim and getting the person banned. They re-invented a version of the Gestapo. Once it became game-ending to strongly express a differing view, using adult language, the interesting people quit playing.

    Now the game is dead. The only reason Anynamewildo and I hopped on here was to try to find some of our old Alliance-mates to see if any of them are playing Destiny so we can go do some raids. It was surprising to see James Cauchi still on here. This confirms my belief that he's actually just an IRC robot.


    Spot on, absolutely spot on.

    Oh and to preempt anyone saying "it has always been like this": I don't ever remember seeing this much anger directed towards the game/GOs/Mods.

    How could I ever have a bad dream when the nightmare is me?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by S.W.E ().

  • By pushing away older, paying players because they felt like they were (and are) being treated like children and singled out.
    Maybe... just maybe - because this game and all its content should be suitable for all age categories (including children)? And GO/MOD won't sort and classified board or game content depending on age just because some older "subjects" think they should be treated by special manners?

    Sometimes I've got a feeling that people should start to think about reasons for troubles in themselves instead of blaming everyone else around.
    Found a bug or think something doesn't work in the game? Don't be afraid and write a ticket or PM me! :)


    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
    (c) Albert Einstein
  • Draxo wrote:

    By pushing away older, paying players because they felt like they were (and are) being treated like children and singled out.
    Maybe... just maybe - because this game and all its content should be suitable for all age categories (including children)? And GO/MOD won't sort and classified board or game content depending on age just because some older "subjects" think they should be treated by special manners?

    Sometimes I've got a feeling that people should start to think about reasons for troubles in themselves instead of blaming everyone else around.


    Ahh, ye old "Remember the Children!". When I was playing, I only saw one child try to play at the older brother's request. The game was too complicated and he quit within a week. You aren't even attempting to address reality with this argument, but let me destroy it anyways:

    How many 10 year olds are in your alliance? We never let any join ours, or they could fake being an adult fairly well and we didn't know (not likely). Your argument is a straw man - a type of logical fallacy. GameForge created content was never the issue - this is a non-sequitur or red herring; another logical fallacy. You have no real argument in favor of the game destroying behavior the MODs/GOs exhibit.

    But! Just for kicks, let's say you're right and there ARE children that slip through the cracks and end up getting exposed to this stuff:

    1. How arrogant of you to think you can parent better than their actual parents who are clearly ok with them being here (either by revealed preference, or by express consent).
    2. Turn on a radio, tune in to some rap. The child will be subject to speech that is definitely worse than anything I can come up with. I've spent a lot of time in Europe, Central America and North America, and can say this holds true in multiple languages and cultures.
    3. Ever heard of Youtube? Even the Chinese version, with all of their censorship, allows things that are worse than anything you find here.

    So you see - MODs/GOs aren't protecting anybody. That is only your own hubris speaking, and it has utterly destroyed this game. If GameForge wanted the community to grow, they would let it set its own norms and if those norms aren't child friendly enough - exclude children.

    I mean, besides - children can't buy Ambrosia anyways. They need an adult with a credit card. Just who do you think you're fooling?
    .


    .ORG Epsilon [QUIT] (former leader, now banned)

    Haven't been banned since 2009!

  • FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    Ahh, ye old "Remember the Children!". When I was playing, I only saw one child try to play at the older brother's request. The game was too complicated and he quit within a week.

    Anecdotal Fallacy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    How many 10 year olds are in your alliance? We never let any join ours, or they could fake being an adult fairly well and we didn't know (not likely).

    Apeal to Probability Fallacy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    You have no real argument in favor of the game destroying behavior the MODs/GOs exhibit.

    Argument from Fallacy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    How arrogant of you to think you can parent better than their actual parents who are clearly ok with them being here (either by revealed preference, or by express consent).

    Affirming the Consequant Fallacy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    Turn on a radio, tune in to some rap. The child will be subject to speech that is definitely worse than anything I can come up with. I've spent a lot of time in Europe, Central America and North America, and can say this holds true in multiple languages and cultures.

    Anecdotal Fallacy
    and
    Cherry Picking Fallacy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    Ever heard of Youtube? Even the Chinese version, with all of their censorship, allows things that are worse than anything you find here.

    Cherry Picking Fallacy
    but more so
    False Analogy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    So you see - MODs/GOs aren't protecting anybody.

    Hasty Generalization Fallacy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    If GameForge wanted the community to grow, they would let it set its own norms and if those norms aren't child friendly enough - exclude children.

    False Authority Fallacy

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    I mean, besides - children can't buy Ambrosia anyways. They need an adult with a credit card. Just who do you think you're fooling?

    Missing the Point Fallacy

    If you want to point out Fallacies in arguments, let me point out a couple of yours.

    I don't mind you arguing that you think there's bias. I welcome it in a lot of instances so the staff here can work better. However, at the root of your argument, you are implying that you are more of an expert in the matter then Gameforge is. This is very much a False Authority Fallacy. The game is allowed to be played by all ages. As such, all content (in game and on board) needs to be applicable to all users. Thus we have a banned word list and check what people write to see if a person is breaking the defined set of rules. The swearing and content rule has never changed in the 8 years this game existed. Neither on the board or in game. The degree of punishment has changed some over the course of the game's life but the content is still not allowed. Your alliance "rules" do not supersede Gameforge rules. It's the reverse.

    If you want to discuss specifics about the bans, then the responsible party can contact GO or MOD via ticket. I don't want to see people continue to break rules in this thread. If you feel the mod/go is being tyrant, go to the smod/sgo, if they are, then go to the GA/BA. That's the chain of responsibility this community uses.

    Thank you.
  • Mogwai® wrote:

    However, at the root of your argument, you are implying that you are more of an expert in the matter then Gameforge is.


    Clearly, I can be no more wrong than GameForge, as evidenced by the reduction in size of the community. At this rate, you will be without a job, as this game is shrinking down to nothing. You've been here almost as long as me - are you really going to tell us that this place is flourishing and successful? It is dead and leaving, and not to be insulting but you specifically are one of the key problems, as you are one of the tiny tyrants to which I was referring.

    Unfortunately, we can't know what resides in someone else's head, and GameForge won't reveal age stats, so the fact that the community is anemic and dying illustrates that your rules are definitely "on the wrong track", and that all of my assertions you say are fallacies are at least likely to be on to something. Your solution to rule breaking appears to be to eliminate all the players and then all the rules will be followed at all times!

    The "chain of command" thing is also bunk. You are all a bunch of robots in an echo chamber that are not interested in improving the community - again, observe that it has all but disappeared. There is no real appeal process, just a kangaroo court style of affirmations. This is in general, by the way. Not any specific ban or anything.

    Either GameForge changes the rules to accommodate and please the people that actually play the game (most notably by specifically forbidding children), or you will continue to see the community of players shrink until GameForge shuts down the game. People have been telling you this for years, and it has been proven a little more true each year as the community dwindles away.
    .


    .ORG Epsilon [QUIT] (former leader, now banned)

    Haven't been banned since 2009!

  • Without going off subject , the destruction of our beloved board isn't the greatest sign of players being looked after... as to the earlier comment on the gaming admin becoming less and less liked, I have noticed this myself I used to get on really well with the GOs and whatnot on the French servers , and I still do now that I think about it.
    I Believe someone used the term micro tyrant earlier now while this may not be true for all, I certainly feel a certain rebellion against the admin in the way people talk often and now react towards the admin.

    On another note people using other languages , how do we know they are swearing?
    And if we are protecting children through the none swearing act , how do we protect them from bullying online too because that can happen here just as easily? and at the end of the day presents a much deeper problem than a 10 year old discovering a interesting new way to call me a number 2.

    As a final note you can say far worse things without swearing .
    Sky to you lot

    A man once walked along the shore, and called he out to me,
    "I see you are a fisherman, a lover of the sea.
    I know this world's a wretched place, but if you'll follow me
    I'll take all of your burdens... and pirates we shall be!"

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Skywalker ().

  • Mogwai, that was an epic post. *standing ovation*

    FMLB, language isn't killing the game. It's perfectly feasible to do all the trolling each other without swear words. I know I can devise ways to own someone without any explicates. You don't need to call someone a $#@&# to insult them. The real problem with the game lies in development and keeping things the same. Here are some major killers I can think of.

    Wonder system change: Make a lot of people mad that strategy on such permanent things changed
    Combat system change: Make a lot of people mad that the battle system they came to like changed
    Piracy: Make a lot of people mad by adding in a whole new component to the game that makes the most effective growth strategies changed

    When you have a major change like that to shift the entire way things are done, you get people that will quit. Then comes the next problem: If you keep everything the same, then people will get bored.

    So really it's a conundrum. You need to change the game enough to keep people interested by new content without changing it so much that the new content makes people mad. The renovation of barbarians is frankly one of the best ways they could do that. (If you like it, you can do it. If you don't like it nothing changes. And it's not so overpowered to completely change the way the game is played.)


    Skywalker, just because there are other ways for children to get exposed to bad things doesn't mean there shouldn't be an effort against it. That's like saying "Well the kids could smoke pot over there so there's no point in trying to keep them from smoking pot elsewhere." It still makes a difference.


    I don't play any servers anymore, I'm just here for the spam and
    :xeno: :xeno: :xeno:




    badidol wrote:

    Dammit, this thing dies darned slowly.




    badidol wrote:

    Go and check the permissions the Facebook app wants, I dare you
  • Kaleg Nar wrote:

    It's perfectly feasible to do all the trolling each other without swear words.


    I agree wholeheartedly, and I've been banned for language when swearing was not involved. "Language" is very broadly defined by the MODs so that they can ban at any time for reasons only they think are reasonable. Hence, the "tiny tyrant" label. Simply being critical of someone has been more than enough in the past.

    As to game changes - I saw several sweeping changes come to the game and they were all things that we adapted to, and just kept on doing what we were doing. I can say that for the people I was involved with, which was almost all of the Epsilon server, the killer was this adherence to rules based around language.
    .


    .ORG Epsilon [QUIT] (former leader, now banned)

    Haven't been banned since 2009!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by FatManLittleBoy ().

  • anynamewildo wrote:

    [
    For once, we agree James.

    Good grief! Us agreeing on something feels about as right and natural as the salt & ice challenge! :fie:

    Now get back in the kitchen and make Bro_Gun a double meat sandwich and hold the pickle.

    Better behave or I'll sic the rabid bunny on you!

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    It was surprising to see James Cauchi still on here. This confirms my belief that he's actually just an IRC robot.

    :borg:

    FatManLittleBoy wrote:

    I agree wholeheartedly, and I've been banned for language when swearing was not involved. "Language" is very broadly defined by the MODs so that they can ban at any time for reasons only they think are reasonable.

    While I know very well where you are coming from, and I have witnessed a number of permanent bans that I have felt to be wrong, I would suggest that a less confrontational path will allow for more mileage. In my experience the staff in general have grown to be more receptive of differing views - a trend that has held for about a year or so - which is not to say that the iron fist is no longer in play. It is simply invoked less often.

    Mogwai® wrote:

    The game is allowed to be played by all ages. As such, all content (in game and on board) needs to be applicable to all users.

    The logic is fair enough. Its also 'possible' (but not likely) that kids play and have ambrosia paid by their parents.

    In my view the nature of Ikariam is simply not an appropriate fit for what most kids consider fun - the strongest (and most under-served) player-retaining aspect of the game being the Social Aspect (hence making it a better fit for teenagers and adults).

    Your alliance "rules" do not supersede Gameforge rules. It's the reverse.

    While understanding that most staff members do not have the liberty to establish lacunas in the application of GameForge's rules, I would like to point out that this is a missed opportunity.

    Providing pathways and conditionalities for looser controls will not only make the GOs' jobs easier (not needing to deal with opportunistic reports nearly as often) but it would also make the game more attractive to individuals of more colourful language.

    As mentioned earlier in this thread such could take the form of clear language on the external alliance page indicating that foul language is permitted. This would apply to circulars, not to private messages between members of that alliance and other players.

    ...

    Even if this were not possible then surely it would be appropriate for an 'adults only' server to be created where certain language restrictions do not apply. If a 10 year old lies about age and gets through the security checks (including a one-time access/ subscription card payment) then its hardly other players' (or event Gsame Forge's) problem if such players become exposed to foul language.

    Furthermore, besides a lot of new accounts, you would likely see a flow of accounts from other servers for the greater freedom of expression - which means more ambrosia sales. More people are happy. :)

    Ultimately there is a time and a place for everything (and I doubt that I've ever committed a swear-word to text throughout my time as a player).


    GAME FORGE!
    Please reconsider your permanent ban practices!

    :!: Contribute to & Vote on: :!:
    (Suggestion: The lit match has been dropped. Its too late now... :thumbdown: )
  • James Cauchi wrote:

    While understanding that most staff members do not have the liberty to establish lacunas in the application of GameForge's rules, I would like to point out that this is a missed opportunity.


    Preach it brotha bot!

    James Cauchi wrote:

    I have witnessed a number of permanent bans that I have felt to be wrong


    This is the core reason the game has shrunk and died. If it's not a "I'll hunt you down in real life" death threat - it's not inappropriate IMO.

    An 18+ server is a splendid idea James!
    .


    .ORG Epsilon [QUIT] (former leader, now banned)

    Haven't been banned since 2009!

  • An 18+ server is a splendid idea James!
    I've got a wonderful idea for you - use any external chat / forum for all your 18+ thingies (swearing, insults and maybe even some kind of sexual content - I suppose you miss it in game as well) but let play other normal people without such content because maybe they want to enjoy game which is suitable for all ages.
    Found a bug or think something doesn't work in the game? Don't be afraid and write a ticket or PM me! :)


    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
    (c) Albert Einstein
  • Draxo wrote:

    I've got a wonderful idea for you


    Why is that a wonderful idea? The world list was from Alpha to Rho and now it is a pitiful shadow of what it was due to precisely this "wonderful" idea. You've been trying it for years and it has only harmed things. So please, detail why that is a better idea than accommodating and pleasing paying players.

    I actually do run BDSM events, thanks for insinuating. If you want to know more, feel free to PM me as that is off-topic.
    .


    .ORG Epsilon [QUIT] (former leader, now banned)

    Haven't been banned since 2009!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by FatManLittleBoy ().

  • If you think that censorship is the main reason for empty servers and decreasing amount of players... well. you know nothing, John Snow (in one of the previous post it was very good explained by Kaleg Nar. :)
    Found a bug or think something doesn't work in the game? Don't be afraid and write a ticket or PM me! :)


    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
    (c) Albert Einstein
  • Draxo wrote:

    If you think that censorship is the main reason for empty servers and decreasing amount of players... well. you know nothing, John Snow (in one of the previous post it was very good explained by Kaleg Nar. :)
    I tend to agree with FMLB here....To a degree. It might not be the main reason but it is certainly one of the major reasons so many die-hard players have left.

    Let me explain...I know, well I guess it's knew now, many many players that left because of censorship or other actions of the staff. Yes, there are those that left because they didn't like an update, or a merge, or some other game change. But, all in all, those that I know left because of those reasons were never really good players in the first place...they were weekend warriors at best and I never pegged them as long term game players. Over zealous acts performed by staff...the players that have been chased off/or banned because of this were, by and large, decent to good players; a lot of whom I had pegged as long-term game players.

    Just to clarify...long-term game players to me are those that log in daily (ie, are active) and participate in every act of the game. From what I've seen, those that concentrate on just one act, be it building or fighting, grow tired of monotony and quit the game; while those that only log in every few days eventually just stop logging in.

    Oh, and it is good to see two back on the en server FMLB and anyname.
    Num-nums!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Vergry ().