Sulfur Carboneers - attacking walls

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  • Sulfur Carboneers - attacking walls

    Whilst raiding barbarian villages it becomes apparent that walls are responsible for killing more of my troops than anything else (at levels 15-22). All troops I'm using are fully upgraded. I'm attacking with enough hoplights to fill the lines and as many catapults as allowed (14) (and full swordsmen).

    It seems as though when I got some sulfur carboneers I was able to kill the wall one round earlier while previously one piece of the wall remained by round 3.

    But they also have such limited ammunition..

    I was looking at the docs, it looks like the "armor" for my level 9 wall would be enough to completely counteract the damage of the carboneer. Are barbarian walls different, am I misunderstanding something, or do my carboneers not actually help with the wall?

    Is it better to offset them a round or two until at least part of the wall has been destroyed?

    On a side note, am I wasting upkeep costs sending swordsmen prior to the barbarians getting a flanking unit?

    Additionally is there any good way to reduce my troop loss? I'm working on getting giants and mortar's. If I send my catapults with approximately 1 hoplight (and reinforce after each round) the catapults would receive the wall's damage right? Or would just the hoplight die?

    Thanks,
    Chase
    Great job on the sig Psychopath^
  • The swordsmen are not wasted gold. The barbarian's exposed flanks mean your swordsmen get to attack their longrange or artillery lines without hindrance if they have them. And even then, you get free shots at their frontline before it even gets to fire.

    1 hoplite + catapults and nothing else = 1 round loss

    The walls, after killing the hoplite, would target the catapults.

    Now, if you have troops fighting and you send in 24 catapults, those catapults would add to your artillery line and fire if they were the strongest units.


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  • With 1 hoplite + catapults, the hoplite would die, some catapults would receive damage (not certain how the damage would be distributed, but I think you would even lose one or two) AND the remaining would be scattered for lack of frontline units.

    As far as I know, carabineers do not fire at walls, so the ammo is not wasted. I am positive they don´t against high walls, and a wall lvl 9 would indeed have enough armor to absorb each shot without suffering damage.

    I haven´t experienced much with the barbarians, but I am already surprised that you mention a max of 14 catapults, where I would have expected 18 or 24, as they usually go by blocks of 4. An advantage of having more than that number is that once the wall is completely down, they will still shoot 24 projectiles per round against the frontline.
    As to swordsmen, if you fill up the entire frontline, you could in theory only send them in to enter the fight only just the round after the last section of the wall has been destroyed. Before that happens they have no use. For the carabineers, as soon as once section is breached, they fire at the enemy.

    To reduce your losses to the wall, as long as the barabarians do not have artillery and second line, consider sending a few spearmen as frontline (at least 7) to fight the first round with your catapults. Make sure hops move in in the second round though.
  • Unwise wrote:

    With 1 hoplite + catapults, the hoplite would die, some catapults would receive damage (not certain how the damage would be distributed, but I think you would even lose one or two) AND the remaining would be scattered for lack of frontline units.

    I haven´t experienced much with the barbarians, but I am already surprised that you mention a max of 14 catapults, where I would have expected 18 or 24, as they usually go by blocks of 4. An advantage of having more than that number is that once the wall is completely down, they will still shoot 24 projectiles per round against the frontline.

    You're correct it is in blocks of 4. I only seem to beable to put 6 in each of two slots totally 12 catapults. My mistake. Are you saying there is an advantage to having more than 12 catapults? Even if they don't fit? My battles aren't lasting more than 5 rounds.

    To reduce your losses to the wall, as long as the barabarians do not have artillery and second line, consider sending a few spearmen as frontline (at least 7) to fight the first round with your catapults. Make sure hops move in in the second round though.


    If I send 7 spearmen + catapults wouldn't my catapults die too? That's what it has sounded like.

    Thanks to both of you for your responses they're helpful.
    Great job on the sig Psychopath^
  • Eldric wrote:

    If I send 7 spearmen + catapults wouldn't my catapults die too? That's what it has sounded like.


    See dont think too much , research mortars and use mortars instead of cats to break the wall against barbarian...:P

    And yes if there is nothing behind the wall and you manage to break few parts of wall than you can use 7 spearman +cats , else go with the complete front line.
  • Eldric wrote:

    If I send 7 spearmen + catapults wouldn't my catapults die too? That's what it has sounded like.

    If you catapults destroyed one wall section and they had nothing else behind it (or just frontline/flank behind it) only 6 spearmen would die.

    SCs will fire at a wall IF the wall's armor level is less than their damage.

    Also, catapults should be in a block of 6, not 4.

    And yes, there is a benefit to having artillery throughout the battle. At first they destroy the wall and then they fire at the frontline.


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  • Kaleg Nar wrote:

    Eldric wrote:

    If I send 7 spearmen + catapults wouldn't my catapults die too? That's what it has sounded like.

    If you catapults destroyed one wall section and they had nothing else behind it (or just frontline/flank behind it) only 6 spearmen would die.




    So the catapults must break at least one wall section for this to work? I misunderstood that I suppose. Sent 7 spearkmen and 12 catapults and it says my troops are reported missing. Looks like I'll be rebuilding my catapults. (Unless they're scattered?)

    It does suck, it takes me 3 rounds to kill the wall and I'm sending the max catapults (12). My losses dramatically decrease once the wall is broken. But rebuilding 40 hoplites only costs 1,200 sulfur so the plunder of 2,700 is worth it.
    Great job on the sig Psychopath^
  • The reason at least one wall section must break for 7 spearmen and 12 catapults to actually start working on breaking down the wall instead of having a one round loss has to do with the order of fire and how things kill in Ikariam.

    While you would think an RL example would have the catapults hanging out beyond the wall and firing at the walls while catapults on the walls fired back at them and the spearmen would be chilling out and singing Kumbaya somewhere out of range, Ikariam is different. In Ikariam the catapults fire at the wall while the spearmen believe they're each Super Man and charge the wall with the wall shooting out the spearmen. If one section breaks, the lone Super Man waves around his pointy stick and somehow carries out pound after pound of loot and gold.

    (I had to give the flavor text of what happens.) The Help section is actually very useful to supplementing what people say while you get a grip with the combat system. Each unit is part of an Order of Fire. On land that means the following order happens.
    1: Gyrocopters fire at enemy balloons. If no enemy balloons are present, they fire at enemy gyrocopters.
    2: Surviving balloons fire at enemy artillery. If no enemy artillery is present, they fire at enemy long-rang units. If no enemy long-range units are present, they fire at enemy frontline.
    3: Artillery (Mortars, Catapults, or Rams) fires at the enemy frontline. If no enemy frontline is available (not sure how that would happen) they fire at enemy flanks.
    4: Flanks (Swordsmen, Spearmen) fire at enemy flanks. If no enemy flanks are present, they fire at the long-range line. If no long-range is present, they fire at the enemy artillery. If no enemy artillery is present, they fire at enemy frontlines.
    5: Long-range units (Sulfur Carabineers, Archers, or Slingers) fire at enemy frontlines. If no frontline is available to shoot at, they shoot at enemy flanks. If no flanks are available, they fire at enemy long-range units.
    6: The frontline (Hoplites, Steam Giants, Swordsmen, Spearmen) fires at the enemy frontline. If no frontline is available, they fire at the long-range, then the artillery, and then the flanks.

    Each unit can also only hit one unit. So if you have a forged mortar with full upgrades firing at spearmen, that full 327 damage chewing through a measly 0 armor and 13 hitpoints is going to waste 314 damage and only kill one spearman.



    So the reason 7 spearmen and 12 catapults scatter is this.
    Artillery fire: Your catapults fire at the enemy wall and damage one section, but cannot destroy it. Now the frontline can fire since no other classes are present. The seven shots (for seven segments) of wall each kill one spearmen. The spearmen don't do anything to the wall. Now you're lefting with only twelves catapults and because artillery, air, air defense, and support units can't hold a battle on their own, your catapults scatter.


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    badidol wrote:

    Dammit, this thing dies darned slowly.




    badidol wrote:

    Go and check the permissions the Facebook app wants, I dare you

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Kaleg Nar ().

  • Kaleg Nar wrote:

    The reason at least one wall section must break for 7 spearmen and 12 catapults to
    So the reason 7 spearmen and 12 catapults scatter is this.
    Artillery fire: Your catapults fire at the enemy wall and damage one section, but cannot destroy it. Now the frontline can fire since no other classes are present. The seven shots (for seven segments) of wall each kill one spearmen. The spearmen don't do anything to the wall. Now you're lefting with only twelves catapults and because artillery, air, air defense, and support units can't hold a battle on their own, your catapults scatter.


    If I send say... 20 spearmen wouldn't they die too? The wall's catapults are 50% accurate and do 80 damage at level 10. Because of splash damage that will do much more than 400 damage (200 direct, and splash. My only reference is: Unit Accuracy who knows if that's accurate) which is enough to easily kill a large number of spearmen.


    Additionally, you were saying the one soldier would carry the loot out. Obviously this is not the case if there are more frontline troops, right?
    Great job on the sig Psychopath^

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Eldric ().

  • There is no splash damage in Ikariam. As I said, one mortar with such high damage firing at a spearman frontline will only kill one spearmen 100% of the time. Accuracy is used to determine if a unit hits a unit that has already been damaged, or a new one. (So imagine 2 v 2 hoplites. 1A and 1B against 2A and 2B. 1A randomly hits 2A. Accuracy determines whether 1B also hits 2A or if it hits 2B.) So if you sent 20 spearmen, here's what could happen.
    R1: No walls destroyed, 7 spearmen killed.
    R2: If no walls destroyed, 7 spearmen killed.
    R3: A wall should be down by now for sure, 8 spearmen killed and you scatter.

    So you'd need to destroy a wall segment in the second round for it to work. Personally, I look just send 30, 40, or 50 of the frontline when pillaging an empty inactive. That's not because it's necessary, but it's an easier click for me and it makes sure I won't run out of frontline to scatter.

    With the one soldier and loot, I was more writing that as flavor text than by-the-book text. But let's say you sent 1 spearman with 192 trade ships at a town without a wall or troops. He would win the battle, loot a maximum of 96k resources, load them in thirty-two minutes (assuming full boats), and bring the load home. If sent 1,000,000 spearmen at the same town, they too would win the battle, loot a maximum of 96k resources, load them in thirty-two minutes (assuming full boats), and bring the load home.


    I don't play any servers anymore, I'm just here for the spam and
    :xeno: :xeno: :xeno:




    badidol wrote:

    Dammit, this thing dies darned slowly.




    badidol wrote:

    Go and check the permissions the Facebook app wants, I dare you
  • Kaleg Nar wrote:

    There is no splash damage in Ikariam. As I said, one mortar with such high damage firing at a spearman frontline will only kill one spearmen 100% of the time. Accuracy is used to determine if a unit hits a unit that has already been damaged, or a new one. (So imagine 2 v 2 hoplites. 1A and 1B against 2A and 2B. 1A randomly hits 2A. Accuracy determines whether 1B also hits 2A or if it hits 2B.) So if you sent 20 spearmen, here's what could happen.
    R1: No walls destroyed, 7 spearmen killed.
    R2: If no walls destroyed, 7 spearmen killed.
    R3: A wall should be down by now for sure, 8 spearmen killed and you scatter.


    If this were the case then how am I loosing 12 hoplites first round? I suppose I'm breaking 2.5 of the walls, is it because I broke a wall? The only opponents that show on the screen on this round are the rams in the background. Are they causing some of the damage? I loose consistently 12 each round until the wall is destroyed.
    Great job on the sig Psychopath^
  • A few questions.

    1: How many walls segments are there? (I'm guessing seven, but I want to be sure as I haven't gone too high with the barbarians.)
    2: Do the barbarians have any artillery, long-range units, or bombers?
    3: Can you show a screen shot?


    I don't play any servers anymore, I'm just here for the spam and
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    badidol wrote:

    Dammit, this thing dies darned slowly.




    badidol wrote:

    Go and check the permissions the Facebook app wants, I dare you

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kaleg Nar ().

  • Yeah, each of those barbarian rams is killing one hoplite. If the wall is lv 9 or less, it can't kill a hoplite, which would mean those two surviving wall segments didn't affect the damage. Any further questions?


    I don't play any servers anymore, I'm just here for the spam and
    :xeno: :xeno: :xeno:




    badidol wrote:

    Dammit, this thing dies darned slowly.




    badidol wrote:

    Go and check the permissions the Facebook app wants, I dare you