Discussions regarding Rules & Regulation

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  • Discussions regarding Rules & Regulation

    Hey,

    As i have recently been warned regarding "Pushing" which is one of the game rules.

    i would like some details for my own understanding,

    -It is not allowed to gain an advantage at the expense of weaker players. A player is considered weaker if his total highscore is lower than that of the accused.


    -In addition a time limit of 48hours for the sending and returning of the resources is mentioned.


    Considering this rule is based on "Sending and receiving of resources"

    Breaking down the rule into multiple section for interpretation,
    excluding the use of the trading post where gold have to be involved.

    -A player is considered weaker if his total highscore is lower than that of the accused.
    No debate for this line. Clear and straightforward.


    -It is not allowed to gain an advantage at the expense of weaker players.


    Scenerio 1
    If a trade were to occur between 2 players, SX (Smaller) & LY (Larger), Player SX requested wine in exchange of sulphur.
    Player LY sent 10,000wine and Player SX.
    In return Player SX sent 15,000 sulphur.


    In a server and area where almost nothing goes on sale,
    both end of the party received an "advantage".


    Player SX consider it reasonable to trade 1.5sulphur : 1wine as sulphur is a luxury resource in excess and wine is necessity to maintain the town happiness.


    1) Is there a particular rule that states, fair trade have to be on a 1:1 ratio? As this is certainly against any sense of economy which is kind of relevant in Ikarium.
    In terms of supply and demand, one will gladly offer more on what he do not need for a lesser amount of what he need.




    2)How does the moderator determine "at the expense of weaker players", when Player SX feels totally fair on the trade basis.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________




    Scenerio 2
    Player SX (Smaller) has sent Player LY (Larger), 11,000 resources to assist him in the upgrade of his Palace.

    Player LY and Player SX are in this game together being friends in RL, and resources have been sent thru and fro to assist each other in their journey of expansion.
    I would consider this as an "Agreement"

    Considering that Player LY previously sent resources to help Player SX (about 20,000~40,000), and the time limit has exceeded the above-mentioned span of 48hrs.
    Player LY now has to "return" the 11k wood, though its Player SX that is repaying for the help received earlier.

    1) In the direction where this is going, a player with higher score will be helping the other with no consideration of future benefits?
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    Hope someone (especially a game mod) is able to clarify these question regarding "pushing".

    If pushing is a rule to prevent players from obtaining "unfair advantage", it should and only be used for occasions where someone is reported for pushing.

    In my honest opinion, assisting a friend or the alliance (no matter they are higher or lower on the rank board) is meant to be of good faith.
    And this good faith should not be tied to the rule on "pushing"


    Best regards
    SY :S
  • Hello Sengyi,

    I can understand your stream of thoughts.

    Though you may not have malicious motives to "push" or help a larger player = friend, these rules exist in order to prevent such scenarios from happening.

    If these rules didn't exist, I could just have 5 friends make each one an account and every day have them send me their goods. And like this, I will play my account but it will be like playing 6 in one. I hope you understand my logic on this.

    Yes, your motives may no be such the ones I just described but the rules exist for that kind of reasons. And Game Operators can't observe every player and every exchange of goods.

    About the first scenario on 1:1 exchange, the same applies in order for a larger player not to be pushed. Because you may value that wine is more valuable than sulphur, but this not apply on every occasion. Imagine a player having 8 towns on wine and 4 towns on marble. In this way, wine is not valuable for him, but sulphur and crystal is much more valuable.

    There are many strategies in the game, and needs are different for each player.These "pushing" rules exist from the very first day of ikariam, especially the rules of exchanging goods between a smaller and a larger player and they exist to keep a balance.

    I hope that I have not disappointed you with my message but rather have helped you clarify this issue.
  • Discussions regarding Rules & Regulation

    Hi Anubis,

    I do understand that the rules exist to function and act as a line of defense against players that tend to misuse loopholes to reach their objective.

    Please do correct me if i am wrong.
    According to your clarification on "pushing"
    The objective of this rule is to prevent the abuse of the usage of multi-players to "push". In another word, to greatly aid the advancement of the stronger player.



    In my situation, the moderator who warned me inform me that she is aware that i have previously sent resources more then what i received.

    However, due to the period from that i sent resource, to the time i receive the resource exceeds 48 hours, it is considered as a "new trade".

    Any resources that i sent to aid a smaller player has to be "repaid" in 48hrs to be considered as repayment (isn't this like sending help, but not really helping?). Thus, i'm in breach of "pushing".

    As to the trading situation, an alliance member sent a message to state that he is greatly in need of wine (the demand). He then, voluntarily repaid in sulphur of greater amount as compared to the wine.


    Therefore, i believe before a warning is issued to the player for pushing, investigation should be more thoroughly. Such as,
    1) looking at the smaller player "growth" to determine he is not made for pushing

    2) Determining the resources received and comparing to the size of the accused.
    (11,000 wood and 5,000sulphur for player with 6towns.. should provide almost insignificant aid)

    3) Seek opinion of the "pusher" about why they sent resource to the accused (this will be a good add on to point 1)

    4) Evaluate the frequency and quantity of the resources sent/received



    As Ikarium is more of a Co-Op based game, assistance rendered to any significant other is with a mindset that there are future returns to be expected.
    48hrs may serve as a guideline for "penalty" of returning of resources if the player is rightfully accused.
    However, it should not be a base for cooperative effort to advance together in the game.


    Thank you so much for replying to clarify the issue for me.
    I do hope that the points that i raised will prevent me from abruptly accused for "pushing".
    Although my advancement is insignificant (only 6 towns..), i do not wish to be banned for "pushing" when in fact its actually team play.


    Thank you once again!

    Best Regards
    SY :D
  • Sorry to disheart you Sengyi but what you are proposing can't possibly happen

    If we were to investigate every trade of goods in the way you described we would need 10 GOs for each world.

    These are too many variables to be taken into consideration and too much time must be spent on this.

    Unfortunately 5k or 10k wood from a small player (50k points) to a large player (6mil player) won't greatly affect the large player but if we want to be fair even a trade like this must be prohibited. It's an insignificant aid but if 100 different players of 50k points send 10k wood to a large player then the amount becomes significant. And on this occasion who should be banned? The large player, the 100 small players or all together?
    GOs can't look into 100 different players to check if their actions were for teamplay of for pushing. You understand that yourself that it's time consuming and resources spent for no reason


    I try to give you an example to understand that what you propose of not being significant in a small scale it really isn't. But there are ways to exploit that and turn this small scale into large scale actions and still everyone would be "legit".

    Players in this game and people in general always find ways to take advantage of the regulations for their own good and in expense of others

    So we try to make such rules that will prohibit most of the players to exploit the system and at the same time give everyone the chance to compete fairly in the game. Yes rules may take away a piece of joy but in the end they are necessary to prevent chaos

    I believe that the rule of "pushing" is the most valuable in ikariam. There are other rules that have destroyed a great portion of this game but I won't talk about this now. It's another story

    Once again I hope that I have made myself clear and you understood why this rule must be applied (it's for the greater good).

    Thank you for your time discussing on this matter but I don't have the time to elaborate more on this. Wish you the best


  • The GO's are pretty decent at giving a warning about this first.

    I have been warned a few times due to lack of attention on my part. A trade of 1,000,000 resources and I lost track of how much I received in relation to how much I sent back.

    Also value of resources, I was initially told that wood is worth less if traded for luxury resource but I haven't got a definitive answer to this question. I was told 2:1 ( 2 wood for 1 marble/sulfur/wine/crystal), is there any truth to this? Does anyone have the definitive answer?
  • Dear all,

    First i will apologise if i have offended anyone in anyway. (esp Antikythera, since you are the one who handled my case)
    I wish to emphasise my point is to clarify and understand as the title mentioned.

    I do understand the rule is "general" as that it applies to all.
    I too do not wish to compete in a world with players who are exploiting for unfair advantages.

    And that investigation performed by the game staff is tedious and time consuming.

    The Game staff as i read are players from another server, with a life on their own, serving voluntary work to maintain the order of the game.
    With gratitude, i would be thankful that i was warned multiple times instead of more drastic measures taken.

    With reference to Oracle question, to serve as a confirmation
    So the "Fair trade" basis, excluding the use of trading post (where gold is involved)
    1) Ratio of 1:1 on luxury resources (without any further consideration of supply and demand)
    2) Ratio of 2:1 for wood:lux resources

    As small as i am (player with approx 70k points), i have been assisting and helping whom i could.
    i would never have thought that with the amount of resources i sent out to aid others, a flat 11k+5k (total 16k) resources that receive would land me in a "pushing" situation.

    So i will learn to accept that, since the rule is made to be inflexible (and there is no flexibility in the handling of issues too), no further considerations will be made for the "accused".



    Thank you for all the clarification. :(
  • i also wanna add to u the idea of bigger players making smaller ones pay "taxes" . When i started playing years ago and didnt know the rules i used to attack smaller players and keep them under pressure untill they agree to pay a portion of resources to me daily . it was a cheap move but even though it didnt help me it guaranteed that those players would never actually catch up to me.

    Keeping that in mind, the rule makes u pay back the same amount of rss sent to u regardless of the amount which may be significant to the other side regardless of its importance to u.
    "More hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than in the name of rebellion " ~C. P. Snow

  • Dear all,

    Thank you for all the clarification and inputs through this topic.

    It have brought to my understanding the rational of the rule "pushing"

    I can understand the reason that the rule is applied to prevent suppression of smaller players as well as to gain an unfair edge by having multiple smaller contributors.

    I will adhere to the rule as stated. In addition, i will keep track of the resources i send for the aid of others.
    My area and server is quite peaceful as of now, so acts of "extortion" has yet to be observed.

    Just a slight note, in my defense.. i actually did send out more resources then i receive.

    I am into Ikarium for the enjoyment of building and expanding my town.
    i do occasionally take actions against those who attacked me, but in general, im not an aggressive player. (i do not force people to contribute to me, nor do i extort smaller players)



    I hope Antikythera will be more lenient on the warnings considering that the breach is without intention.
    Following instructions, i did return any amount stated at my expense as soon as i notice or have been notified.


    Thank you all for the time and effort to reply me once again!
    :D

    SY