new version of pushing rule

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  • new version of pushing rule

    It is not allowed to gain an advantage at the expense of weaker players. A player is considered weaker if his total highscore is lower than that of the accused.

    - This refers to transport of raw materials and other luxury resources from lower to higher score accounts, without any returns (we usually allow a limit of 48 hours).
    - This will also refers to piracy where there is a gain of unfair advantage when piracy points are raided by higher score accounts.

    In general, the raiding of lower score accounts by higher score accounts is not prohibited.
    What is not allowed is the abuse of a higher score account benefiting from small accounts created for the sole purpose of being raided, with or without the consent of the lower accounts, irrespective of whether an agreement has been made between two players.
    This also includes the pyramidal raiding systems within an alliance or accounts, collecting capture points from those smaller accounts for the sole benefit of a higher score account.

    Most of you will think that they will now be reported by smaller players for getting raided. Be assured that each report, each case, will be investigated.


    Questions:

    1. in general, high TS players can raid lower score players but each of their raids will be investigated.... in other words, high score players have a very limited option of who to raid, if anybody, whereas lower score players can raid anybody.
    Let's say you're a top 50 TS player.... half of top 50 TS players are not involved in piracy, so... unless you want to get banned on the grounds of the new pushing rule, you have a max of 25 players to raid (and at least half of them have fortresses on the other side of the map so no point in sending mobiles there), whereas all other players have many more targets..... i call this discrimination against all those players who have been playing this game for years and years, i.e. 9 years for me.

    2. GF have finally realized they have :censored: up the game by allowing 10 multis per player and now, after years of multis popping up like crazy, want to remedy it by basically disallowing the same, disregarding the fact that some multis have been built up to fairly big accounts, and all the ambro that was paid into those multis to make them bigger or to protect resources or capture points....

    and.... most importantly
    3. all high TS players WILL be reported and banned (oh, those small accounts will have a ball here! they got a green light to report anyone coming near them, so why not ban them all!!!!), ergo the number of players will go down drastically....until there's not enough of players left to sustain the servers.... and that's the ultimate goal of GF, isn't it? It has been for years.
    How about being honest, GF, and saying 'we want to shut the game down, it's not lucrative any more, we have no interest in keeping it going'? At least it would show you have some integrity.

    .... and GOs....you are looking at a whole lot of reports coming your way as soon as this rule comes into effect :) Enjoy your work! :thumbup:

    The post was edited 1 time, last by -Hera- ().

  • Do not get all 'worried' about this. There is a difference between accounts that are created recently SOLELY for the purpose of being raided in piracy! and those accounts 'smaller than you'. And that is what we are looking at!

    The intention is NOT to beat those regular players, but our intention to help those regular players!
    You'll Never Walk Alone
  • I like to reclarify this.
    This is not a witchhunt nor a way to reduce the majority of players' integrity in their piracy actions.

    The new incoming revised version will eventually reduce the amount of piracy rewards, and the pushing rule will be adapted to piracy as well.
    To 'answer' your questions
    1. no, each of their raids will NOT be investigated. It's not possible unless admins believe there are violations. If you raid your lower TS neighbour who is playing like any other player, it is NOT a violation.
    2. multis will stay. Doesn't make you happy, doesn't make me happy. But it stays. Multis (linked correctly via IP Sharing) that have built up, progressed, played 'normally', I have nothing against them.
    3. Well, if all high TS players get reported, then so be it! Again, I emphasise the fact that this is not to beat players like you! We are aiming at those who abuse the way how piracy is played. And yes (before you disagree), I know piracy is not a wonderful invention, but it is here to stay too!
    And we are here to try and reduce that abuse.
    You'll Never Walk Alone
  • Its a good update for genuine pirates :)
    i just have question -
    HOW DO WE DEFINE THE PHRASE "played normally"
    if anyone use the same multi which he/she was using before to abuse the rule but now he/she just start building that multi will it be considered played 'normally' ?
    Pi - Fish1(SnM)
    Dionysos - Scarlet Overkil(MINI)
  • Shinchan_996 wrote:

    if anyone use the same multi which he/she was using before to abuse the rule but now he/she just start building that multi will it be considered played 'normally' ?


    I think I can live with that! :)

    I may have used the wrong word when I mentioned 'normally'. What is normal to one, may not be so for another! I do not doubt that at all.
    But, I don't think I need to go into details the differences between 'good' multis and 'bad' multis. We have seen reports ingame, in tickets and in this board about how abuses have occurred. Yes, it took time to get to that; and yes, as some of you will say, some good players have left because of that.
    We cannot turn back the clock. We cannot repair the harm done but we can at least start to reduce it, or at least, try to...
    You'll Never Walk Alone
  • Well, a lot of players set up their 'alliance cores' for the purpose of piracy. Now the game has changed drastically. In order to make those accounts 'fighting accounts' again - as a lot of them will have to abandon piracy, a lot of players will have to move their towns. Is that a way to make players use ambro? A lot of them have stopped using it, me included, so i don't think it's fair what you're doing to them now.

    BTW, I'm not actively playing any more, so it doesn't concern me much. I don't think i'll be coming back to the game, I just like to keep in touch with the players i met on ika. I'm just looking at what seems just/fair to me. And this doesn't sound fair by a long shot.

  • Why should this stop your alliance cores piracy?
    I don't understand, or are you saying that there are some members in your alliance who have created accounts for no other purpose except to be raided daily?
    Otherwise, I really don't see why this adaptation of the pushing rule on piracy should create problems for most alliances or players.
    You'll Never Walk Alone
  • Dont like this update at all.

    i believe these rules could be interpreted wrong by the SGOs, GOs or anyone else. i get reported all the time becuase i beat people at piracy and under the previous rules i was banned for "Circumvention". (which was wrongly done and did get my account back) but i feel like this "Circumvention" or "Pushing" can just be a poor excuse to ban people now.

    i pay resources to my feeders for piracy points. these are small players on the edge of the world. but all it takes is someone to report me and one SGO to get the wrong idea and im banned again.

    alliances pay me piracy points in return for 3 day peace often smaller players.

    i know they are saying that they are only looking at multi accounts but whos to say what is a multi account.

    i think more and more good people will get banned due to this. And honestly the rewards being quartered i dont think the risk is worth it
  • iotsak wrote:

    Why should this stop your alliance cores piracy?
    I don't understand, or are you saying that there are some members in your alliance who have created accounts for no other purpose except to be raided daily?
    Otherwise, I really don't see why this adaptation of the pushing rule on piracy should create problems for most alliances or players.


    I know of a ton of multis that were created solely for the purpose of feeding capture points, but..
    Multis of the players I play/played with were created for SEVERAL reasons, all for the benefit of their creators' alliances or other friendly alliances, and no rule was breached. The reasons were:
    1. to help with piracy, of course
    2. to help with trading resources
    3. to help with supplying troops/ships if necessary
    4. to fortify alliance cores.
    All of them have been grown to a size and are still growing, some are still small, some are bigger... but they are ALL smaller in TS than the main accounts, naturally. As far as I understand the new pushing rule, such multis are not supposed to be raided by bigger accounts as it would be considered a violation of the pushing rule (smaller TS).
    If that is not true, what are the characteristics of the accounts/multis which are not supposed to be raided unless one wants to risk being banned? And is it valid only within an alliance, e.g. raiding multis on daily basis, or members of other alliances are free to raid them daily without getting banned even if reported?

    The rule has to be clear, iotsak. A lot of people objected when multis were first allowed about 2.5 years ago, but now that they are there and a lot of players have them, there should be very clear parameters defining those that can/cannot be raided.
    What if there's a 3mil TS account that's there only to feed points? and there's a 200kTS account that's actually active and growing and makes capture runs to get some more gold and also feeds points to a bigger TS player? How are you going to determine which account is 'created' solely for the purpose of feeding points?
    I know I sound like a nitpicker, but rules are rules. If you want players to obey them, they need to be crystal clear. Otherwise there's ground for even more cheating.

  • I've already had a smaller player threaten to report me for raiding them.

    @ iotsak...... What rock have you been hiding under for the past 3 years? It would not be a stretch to say that half of the accounts left on Alpha were created for the sole purpose of being raided.

    Ridding Alpha of wasted resources, one pillage at a time

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Master Blaster ().

  • I think it is about time...GREAT RULE!

    I one question.

    In the pushing rule you have 48 hours to get the resources back to the the smaller account. In any type of pyramid scheme involving piracy, whether alliance wide or just a collection of players, will it be considered pushing if luxury goods are given for the Capture Points taken?
    Num-nums!
  • This will hurt some of those smaller accounts. Sometimes deals are made because those smaller accounts don't have enough warehouse space to make a top 50 finish worthwhile. A big account with massive warehouse space can make a deal with that smaller account. Let me have your points and I'll give you more resources than you would have won on your own. Win/win. I helped many smaller players like that in the past. Although the quartered rewards will probably put an end to that strategy as well anyway.
  • I'm already being PM'd by a player telling me that I'm not allowed to raid them because their sole purpose on the server is to be a feeder. I have no idea to whom, nor do I care. The showed up today with 26K CP and I took it from them.

    I think the GOs will be busy investigating as the way the pushing rule is amended leaves much open to interpretation.

    Ridding Alpha of wasted resources, one pillage at a time
  • Before replying to everyone, I will begin with saying one thing: 
You will be warned by an Operator (under Admin instructions) concerning a possible piracy-push situation. This will be done via Ingame messaging and via email (ticket will be issued).
    Any contestation from you will be discussed via the ticket.

    EDIT: due to lot of abuses we had in the past, what stated above does not apply any more. We generally do not warn for piracy pusihng ~ Sampisa

    Now, to this rule.

    @ Kermit
    Please do not refer to your ban again! Don't think yourself any higher in thinking that players were reporting you all the time. We do check players in our own right. Your ban has already been discussed between you and myself. Yes, an error has been made, and it was made only to you, not to the other players who were banned along with you! But, as I have already mentioned to you, you were not exactly white on white… Any dirty linen concerning any game staff, please send me and Sampisa (admins) a ticket, or to CoMa if it concerns us. Thank you.
    Admins have shown a huge degree of leniency amongst some players in org over the past years. Any of the older players here will tell you that a few years ago a single (just ONE) fleet contact will put you in 9999-day ban!! No discussion, no unban.

    Now, to this subject and your concerns.

    @ Kermit
    I really doubt there will be misinterpretations, because as I have mentioned quite clearly, accounts that will be watched are those who have absolutely NO activities except for being raided for piracy. And that is not a rare view in the newer servers.
    And this often concerns ‘unwanted NEW' accounts popping up. I won’t need to enter into details about this, but I am sure many of you (especially those in the newer servers) will know exactly what I am referring to.

    As for your prognosis about the quartered rewards, you may be correct. It may (at least in my prognosis too) cut out all those ‘unwanted new’ accounts. But should not interfere with the usual ones that have already been there since the beginning. These will continue to exist, and possibly grow (albeit a little bit) and stay put on their islands, and become an alliance core (as Landian mentioned). And occasionally, provide you and other bigger accounts the piracy points that have been the case. These will not be banned or get you banned, unless they violate the multi/circumvention rule themselves.

    @ Landian
    As said above, those who have already shown growth (albeit a little bit) will stay, as long as the multi rule is kept.
    You ask how I can determine which account is created solely for the purpose of feeding points? well yes.. I can! As mentioned, I will warn players first, those in the older servers, and we will discuss about my suspicion.
    So, in other words, if I have suspicion, I will discuss with the raider first!

    @ Master Blaster
    A player who wants to report you does not need to tell you or ask for your permission. We get all kinds of reports from players, and we have discarded more than one can bother to count! Each report is looked into, players are checked (including the reporters themselves).

    Well, the rock was pretty huge, and hard to lift since our hands were tightened.
    You are one of the old dinosaurian players here in Ikariam, and thanks to you (and some of the others here like Landian, vergry and reignman) Ikariam continues because of you guys! And of all the people here, you should know how difficult it is for some of the staff here. We get insulted, we get 'spitted at' (thanks to the almighty greek gods there is a screen to protect us!). I know about the situation in Alpha, and I won’t hide the fact that you may be right (although possibly not half of alpha), but most have grown since (thanks to piracy :S).

    @ Reignman
    We know the difference between those small accounts who are rewarded by larger accounts, and who use their resources (obtained from larger accounts) and play the game.
    Again, this rule is aimed at those new accounts that appear without any other purposes except to be raided. I will not enter into details about such accounts.

    @ Vergry
    Unfortunately that is one thing I cannot 'repair'.. certain pyramid scheme.
    Again, when I mentioned pyramidical scheme of piracy actions, I actually refer to those who appear 'suddenly', collecting points between them by some sleight of hands (to put it politely!)...
    The giving of raw materials or luxury resources to smaller accounts do not have the 48 hour check. There is no pushing there. Or, have I misunderstood your question?
    You'll Never Walk Alone

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Sampisa: Clarification ().

  • One question:
    Why are big accounts to be punished because they raid smaller accounts set up solely for the purpose of making capture points? How is anyone to know which accounts are solely feeders and not just new accounts? How about you ban the small accounts - if you can prove they were set up only to provide capture points to bigger account(s)?
    That would be much fairer - the servers would get rid of a lot of multis, you would finally have a clearer picture of how many really active accounts there are and when you need to time next merge (if you haven't already), players who have invested a lot of time, energy and money into building their accounts could still play regularly without worrying which SGO or GO is going side with a small player and get their account banned because of somebody's interpretation of the rule which is not clear at all.

  • @ Vergry
    Unfortunately that is one thing I cannot 'repair'.. certain pyramid scheme.
    Again, when I mentioned pyramidical scheme of piracy actions, I actually refer to those who appear 'suddenly', collecting points between them by some sleight of hands (to put it politely!)...
    The giving of raw materials or luxury resources to smaller accounts do not have the 48 hour check. There is no pushing there. Or, have I misunderstood your question?
    No, you misunderstood. Basically, to simplify, I was asking if a larger account could have a lot of smaller feeders if those smaller feeder accounts were given luxury goods in the place of the Capture Points the larger account was taking?
    Num-nums!
  • @ Landian
    I do not run amok in servers banning every large object that moves on a smaller one.

    - Why punish the big accounts? Please do not generalise the situation. Several times I have mentioned this is not the objective. (I think vergry's last comment may change what you think about this).
    - How about banning the small accounts? They will be banned too.
    You and many will ask, why not ban them for multis? Sure, done all that. But, that's when it's easy!
    I cannot hide the fact that this is far more complicated than you can imagine. If the small/tiny accounts are so clear to me, I won’t be having a conversation here today, nor would I have taken the measures to make an announcement yesterday.
    - How do you know if you are not attacking a bad guy sometimes? Well, you don’t. As I said, I do not run amok with a ban hammer bashing at every larger account hitting smaller ones! I will check on his history.

    @ Vergry
    That is what I would like to see :)

    Landian mentioned in the previous message "Otherwise there's ground for even more cheating.". There is always ground for more cheating. This is not concerning you, vergry, but it is what I have observed.
    No, there are no tricks involved; it is something known, seen, viewed as being 'ok' to some. But not ok to us, nor to many of you, I am sure.
    PlayerA raids many small ones.
    He sends resources to the small ones.
    And 2 days later, bam! he pillages them back. Or, they sell them back and forth via trading post to allow more gold to playerA.
    Nice guy...
    You'll Never Walk Alone
  • iotsak wrote:

    - This will also refers to piracy where there is a gain of unfair advantage when piracy points are raided by higher score accounts.


    @iotsak
    The sentence is written in the future tense. Can you clarify when the rule enters into force? Is it "Counting from now", or from the 6th of March (date of release of the new version 0.7.6 according to your nearly concurrent announcement), or looked at on/from April 2nd, when the next cycle of piracy will end (at least I guess it corresponds to that date).

    Another question I have in mind is what happens to someone who might have been fed, but didn't, couldn't keep the points till the end? How did he get any benefits whatsoever over the smaller accounts who at least got the gold?

    While I welcome the general spirit of the rule, I can foresee many difficult situations in the future.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Unwise ().

  • Unwise wrote:

    looked at on/from April 2nd, when the next cycle of piracy will end (at least I guess it corresponds to that date).

    Yes, that date.

    Unwise wrote:

    Another question I have in mind is what happens to someone who might have been fed, but didn't, couldn't keep the points till the end? How did he get any benefits whatsoever over the smaller accounts who at least got the gold?

    If he got fed, but got hit by someone else, then nothing will happen to him. I won't punish him if he didn't really get anything. Nor, will I punish the other guy who took it from him. Historic movements and activities will tell me if this is part of the 'scheme', or not.
    I also like to emphasise that most of the situations I mentioned are more 'sordid' than I have described! I am not referring to the every day piracy activities that Landian is telling me.

    edit: I have added the date 2nd April on that statement.
    You'll Never Walk Alone