Ares, demeter Rework/redesign suggestion

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    • Ares, demeter Rework/redesign suggestion

      Do you like this suggestion? 16
        Yes (10) 63%
        No (6) 38%
      General Information:

      Ares Wonder Redesign. Are’s the god of war, he emboldens men and women to fight. For honor, for glory, and for plunder. With his blessing your troops will beg to be sent into battle. (Flavor could use some work)

      Demeter’s Garden. I think demeters is mediocre and really only useful if you spent all you citizens on troops. However, I think it could be more useful

      What I'm suggesting.

      Ares base cooldown time 2day 2 hours. Each duplicate wonder reduces by 9% of maximum. Down to a minimum of 1 day 4 hours. Lasts for 2 1/2 hours.
      I. Your troops lose 5% less morale per round and cost 5% less
      II. Your troops lose 10% less morale per round and cost 7.5% less
      III. Your troops lose 15% less morale per round and cost 10% less
      IV. Your troops lose 15% less morale per round and cost 15% less
      V. Your troops lose 20% less morale per round and cost 20% less

      Currently, and lets be honest, you have to hate winning to not have pretty much all forge islands. This redesign would make ares not only useful again, but strategic. It wouldn’t really give you an advantage in combat, just in the Gold stocks. Also you could save gold on cooks I guess, you could also afford to fight for longer if your pushing extreme armies. On are’s the morale effect would just do nothing, if they had the ares wonder. It could affect normal upkeep while still having a normal supply cost' or alternatively it can affect both. Lets get a nice discussion going so we can iron out and hopefully make are’s great again.
      The citizen's fall over drunken with joy in the streets as our empire’s cups overflow, and our exhibit’s glow warmly due to the blessings of Demeter. Extra 5 hours on cooldown compared to current wonder.
      Lasts same as now
      I Increase Hapiness gains from Muesuems and taverns by 5%
      II 7.5%
      III 10%
      IV 12.5%
      V 15%
      How will it change the interface/gameplay/battles/system?
      It will give smaller players more umph with which they can utilize without fear of Overspending. It may seem trivial, but especially on the War server gold is a useful commodity that runs out. It won't really help with normal server or old servers. As I'm sure some people could afford to send their entire GS to garrison for weeks without even beginging to touch their gold.
      Hopefully at least in use with cooks or tenders, it can make combat more affordable for the newer player, longer lasting for older players, and reduce some of the tediousness of cycling. Which I still would for Munitions troops. It would make forge more valuable as it could be used in conjunction to make a longer lasting, harder hitting, cheaper army then your opponent. Sadly I don't see a way to make it incredibly useful for multi millionare slumdogs, without making it overtuned and ending up with forge 2.0
      Demeter, Probably the worst miracle ever currently. It has a niche, but it fills it badly. While gaining the extra pop is nice, it's not worth the gold. This suggestion Would give you more Pop due to higher hapiness rather then Due to a flat x people. So you tavern and muesuem levels will help make this wonder pop.
      Early game it gives mediocre results, but in large scale war it would mean troops could be churned out. Used in conjunction with the Ares rework, it could turn some minor battles, into massive multi hour conflicts that could span multiple cities.
      This game is meant to be played over the course of years, this gives those alpha Slumdogs with maxed everything that edge they deserve while giving their opponents the same edge. And for new players fives them stratefies and paths to glorious combat much sooner. Essentially it gives new players better millitary progression, allowing conflicts to be waged more often, and allowing longer battles.
      Suggestion Reason:
      Wonders need reworked. Fresh ideas are never a bad thing. Plus these seem really good on paper. Though I would like help, getting the numbers where they should be. So they don't becone mandatory, but instead QOL enhancers for those that want them. Also the more troops being made, the more gold, wood, and sulfur that goes with it. Meaning a healthier ingame economy, and likely more ambrosia sales for gameforge.
      Special Notes: thanks for your hard work reading our stupid ideas hera :love: Also if anyone has any ideas for ways to make the ares one more beneificial late game, please add those suggestions below. These are being pitched together, but they don't need to be. If you like one but hate the other show support for the one you like and try to improve both with your feedback!
      Hope you guys enjoy my first suggestion.
      Life begets death. Death brings out strife. I'd rather have neither, but here's to this life! :beer:

      The post was edited 1 time, last by -Hera- ().

    • Voted yes.
      Haven't used Ares yet, so can't really comment on the numbers. The cooks seem to negate the need for this to a degree. A cost reduction, especially for troops away from home, would be a nice alternative. I'd be tempted to increase the cost reduction considerably. Perhaps even to 50% for troops away from home.

      I know the Demeter tweak would give me over 200 extra happy citizens in my biggest tavern, which would be really nice if I had a barracks there :)
      But still nice if I forget to ship wine and need to recover my lost citizens.
    • ARES
      I was honestly toying around with the numbers and i do think the gold upkeep should scale higher per tier. I do like the entry point however, it's makes the rss required feel like a legitmate improvemnt, versus a slight buff.


      That was the thought. It could give enough to troops to negate a little neglect, a waste, but helps recover your economy since you've invested in maintining commune with the god's. And across all of your cities, lets say you have 8, you could be talking a few thousand General score in possible recruits. Which is fantastic.
      Since you are still limited by Sulfur and wood production, it is only as powerful as your resource economy. It also doesn't change troop training times. Meaning after a major defeat a player would still be vulnerable as they should be. However they won't be for as long, so Cr's will be more plentiful.
      I Can seing it being used for people to burn sulfur and wood when being attacked, but it wouldn't be more effective at that then wasting rss already is. It would just make the Citizen count come back faster, after the fact.
      Glad you liked the idea!
      Life begets death. Death brings out strife. I'd rather have neither, but here's to this life! :beer:

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Finnarius ().

    • While I agree on your first point Quartz, the second doesn't make sense. These changes clearly are supposed to revolve around war, which is also the main attraction of the game. The changes to Demeter effectively means you can train 15% more troops. That's a lot of troops, and going from a miracle that used to be useless, to one which you can send a raid to, pop the miracle, and leave, is a huge boost to power. I like the idea and I think the numbers are fitting.

      For Ares, the numbers are way too small. You'll either have to make it possible to keep permanent uptime, or make units free in the 150 minut period. Again however, this is not a miracle that is worth investing into, since the reduced cooldown does not give you a bonus that is relevant enough in a variety of scenarios. One for training troops, and one for raiding. Both would be great with a raid though, and as such much better than the miracles are in their current state of the game.
    • Warning Math Below :grumble: , the faint of heart should look away.. :lol:
      Quartz I wasn't aware that when you have a army that costs over 100k an hour un-deployed that Cooks are worth more then priests. :pillepalle: When they technically cost 3x as much an hour, adjust 2 less an hour. Duly noted. Jokes aside.. No, it's not more effective to have no priests then quiet literally rapid regrowth or possibly 50-100k+ reduced upkeep.

      For ares I agree with Abeged after running the numbers. The reduction number probably should be increased to 75% at lvl 5 and last for 3 hours instead. The Morale bonus stacks with the cooks. Battles could last longer with less cycling. an extra 30 minutes per deployment. Because Cooks give Morale. That means all chefs would have increased efficiency, since morale is being lost at a slower rate. For example If a unit loses 1 morale a round. and a Cook gives .25 a round. the net result is that troops will only lose .6 morale per round. If a troop has 10 stamina they last 10 rounds without a cook. 13.3 with cooks. 15.3 with the miracle plus cooks, and 12.5 without the miracle and no cooks. This combined with the Upkeep reduction actually makes this better overall. Since no cooks are required for nearly the same effect. Since a cook can only serve 50 people if i remember correctly, you would need 30 cooks. 30 cooks sitting around not deployed cost you 300 an hour. 700 deployed. So between 8k -18k daily. That's between 49k-39k less. Added in with the upkeep of 2000 troops and probably about 150 is warships in standby somewhere as well gulping gold. lets say you your costs are about 78-85k unless you're throwing mass spears. this will save around 35k -38k at 45% or 58,000 -63k at 75% The upkeep reduction alone at this level would pay for nearly three days of upkeep. Since it's on a 2 day cool down using it frequently will put you at a positive net income from the wonder. as you will save proportionally more gold then you are spending. Imagine it's like paying dues at a Sam's club or Costco. But, since you pay due's it's up to you to decide whether you get value from your investment . And this is at the low end of examples. If you have a 20k GS You will likely be saving far more gold in one single use then you spend on priests for 4-5 days per use. You could actually pay for some of your forge islands as well by using it habitually. The Morale reduction was only added to keep ares consistent with it's own lore. People who fight for ares normally fight to the death and for honor. Not gold, and they surely didn't lose morale. Dying in combat is the greatest honor for a child of ares.
      Also I know that a cook only restores one morale per round total i believe. This was an example. to show the effectiveness of the miracle not the cooks. If someone wants to do the math to see the amount of cooks required to truly get the same effect, then by all means you are welcome to do so. I however, wanted an easy way to show the effectiveness of the reduction, and the fact that it works on ships as well as scales to any number of troops makes it valuable when you don't have enough cooks. The number it saves per fielded troop is 2.4 stamina during it's duration. A cook gives 12 in the same time, But this is spread among all troops. VS per troop. Also since I know 30 cooks is essentially an indefinite battlefield. It could be that Are's Increase enemy morale loss, instead of reducing yours. But this seems more like a balance issue with cooks then the miracle. As I'm not sure how 30 cooks can sustain a few thousand people every round. but who knows they could be chefs sent from the gods themselves.

      For Demeter At 0 citizens, or any amount that isn't to full, you would get about 5-800 per town. That is 4,500 -7,200 Gold per hour increase per town. so lets say you need 200 priests that's 600 gold an hour. + 1800 gold an hour in missed income. This costs 57,000+ a day, as does every miracle at level five. if you have 10 towns, you make this up after the first hour of uptick after the miracle ends. Not counting the growth during. Your assertion that it's simply not worth it is simply untrue for Demeter. Maybe if you play IkariamBuildVille and don't war often then yes, you are correct. It is currently hot garbage, and is a waste of space on the island let alone in your city. However neither of these wonders are relevant to those kinds of people that don't war. That's like saying the forge is the worst wonder because you only build. Not that I want to make assumptions on your play-style, but I'll assume you make some extremely good Cr's on a regular basis. Especially with a spicy avatar like that :beer: .
      Life begets death. Death brings out strife. I'd rather have neither, but here's to this life! :beer:

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Finnarius ().

    • The benefits are good but do not justify the costs. A high-level town may require 1000 priests. That's a cost of 3000 gold / hour ordinarily. You can get 300 cooks for that when you only need 30. So you don't need the morale bonus. As for the maintenance costs in wartime, it seems good but you've got to factor in that 3000 gold per hour in peacetime. Plus there's the issue of the building space.

      For Demeter, I'd rather just overlevel my Taverns and put extra workers as Helping Hands when necessary. Much more cost-effective, and saves a building space too.
      Alpha: member of Pirate's Cove.
      Beta: Leader of United Galley Slaves.
    • Now again you are assuming that this "peace-time" thing is of existance. I know for me it isn't, and I know that for several other players it isn't either. Also 30 cooks.. There is absolutely no way an account that requires 1000 priests can live off of 30 cooks. For instance, I'm using 750 priests in all my towns for my account on Charon. My army (when I actually need an army larger than mortars and hops), is containing 100 cooks. You'll need 20'ish per active fight, and you'll be raiding at least 3 people at a time. So no, it would be worth it, not saying I'd use it, but it would be worth it.

      Now for Demeter. I'm not going to do the exact math, but lets take one of my towns on before-mentioned account (of 5 mil ts) as an example. I am currently serving 350 wine alongside my museum to provide 3k'ish happiness. 15% of that is 450. To make up for that in wine served would be an additional 200 wine per city. Helping hands produce half of what a normal worker does, of which produce 150% in my cities. So they will produce 75%. This means you'll need 300 workers extra, per town. I have 10 towns, that's 3000 workers, or 9000 gold an hour. Lets assume we have 3 miracles, and as such it has 50% uptime (with theocracy, which we are going to be running since this is a war focused topic). This is 2275 priests, equaling a loss of 4550 gold an hour. Now since it's only 50% uptime we'll multiply by 2. And as such we are hitting 9100 gold loss an hour. 100 more than using helping hands.

      So the conclusion. None of us are right. It's neither worth it, nor is it not worth it. The numbers would need to be buffed for it to have any relevancy.
    • For any miracle, the wonder needs a certain percentage of Priests to maintain 100% Faith. For high-level towns that can reach 1000 priests, which cost you 3000 gold. And you'll need more than one city of them to cut the cooldown time. But to keep morale in an army you only need 30 cooks, which cost you far, far less.

      As for Demeter, my towns are likely much higher-level than yours and I've overlevelled my Museums and Taverns to reduce my Wine expenditure and I spend vastly more wine than you. If I wanted to reduce the amount of wine I use, I would build the wine reducer.
      Alpha: member of Pirate's Cove.
      Beta: Leader of United Galley Slaves.
    • You seem to be missing the premise. I said lets say you need 200. I am well aware that the amount rises. Also, this was not designed as a way to save wine. It is in it's simplest form a way to increase population growth. This effects both taverns and museums. Meaning your Population would rise much faster. These are changes meant for people who actively war. At the level of the game you are on no wonder is worth it. It costs more to use a forge then those troops you are saving are likely worth. Actually that would make forge and Demeter the only real miracles worth it besides maybe pos if you ship alot. Since the Demeter would reward your investment, but again only if you actively war. This is about min maxing. At the level of the game where a 20k GS Navy costs less then your next Town hall upgrade objectively, You are making more gold then you care for. You can say but it costs more then the people it's adding. However, Citizens are worth more then their G/h. They are workers, they are troops, they are everything. This gives you 15% more of that everything. I didn't create these redesigns for you. I designed it with everyone in mind. And everyone means the middle to low high tier win out. And let me tell you, a new server would get benefit out of these miracles for well over a year. And any alliance who opposes you would seem far larger. As they would suffer 15% less damage no matter what. Resources are truly and utterly worthless. you can have 1m Wood, and 25m sulfur. 0 pop = 0 troops. This is for those wishing to aggressively engage, to encourage and foster more then a defensive stance to the game. If you have 100m gold or 10k gold, the Demeter gains value from what you do with it. Plus you could go 6 - 6 Demeter and forge and have nearly 100% uptime of both.

      Also yes a lvl 40 town hall would need over a 1000 priests. Something that takes multiple years to achieve, should definitely be the basis for the entire balancing of wonders. I'm joking of course, because that my friend is called an extreme outlier in statistics and probability. As it is such, I simply refused to take it into account when making the wonder suggestion. Frankly it would be stupid. Most servers don't last nearly as long as alpha or beta. I'm sorry but No change to either of these would be able to please you on any level. But the point of a discussion is to discuss the faults and merits of something. However, when you don't step back and look at it as a whole, you get a biased opinion. Just in the way a lvl 1 doesn't benefit from a miracle in the same way a lvl 20TH does. A Level 40TH certainly would exist on a different scale entirely.
      At most level these miracles could and most likely will change the way the game can be played. I'm fairly certain that you, Would never touch either of these miracles in there current state if you were paid 1 ambro a day to do so. They are frankly so bad at a high level that it's the equivalent of throwing away gold and Valuable people, not to mention upgrade costs.
      Theocracy Government type. priests produce +1 gold and Wonders cool downs are reduced by 20%. I took all of this into account when I wrote my initial post. I neglected to mention theocracy since I'm sure everyone knows about it. I really wanted the wonders to speak for themselves. However since the premise of your argument is cost, I want to say that a 1000 Priest Temple with theocracy will save you more money then any other gov, besides possibly Technocracy if you have a lot of scientists. Also I'm sure that you'll mention either the build cost reduction or build time reduction governments, but that is a play-style. Much like Temple in every town is Also a play-style. This however is meant to offer more variety to everyone. Personally I only ever use about 40% of my towns for temples. mainly because the only good wonder is forge. Collus if you want insurance, and Poseidon if you ship a lot of Long distance goods.
      Wonders are supposed to make a huge difference while active. Currently they have as much impact as a magikarp on land, against an electric type that's 30 levels higher. They should make a difference.

      Also I am not mad or disgruntled at you. I simply wish you would help us tune the miracles in a more productive way. What do these miracles need for you personally to consider them useful. If you can help us with this surely we would be able to expand the rework presented in a way that doesn't neglect the outliers. Perhaps the wonder system itself needs overhauled and the underlying issue is that we need more Faith levels on the wonder. Something that requires an island wide participation to work towards. like 4 maybe even 5 mill required donation for lets say tier 10, but coming with A major bump to the wonders power. Without making it impossible for lower players to compete. Though it's hard to say they can any way in the current system. Maybe a priest overhaul or additional sciences to help allow the top not to experience the bloat effect. (Where you're so big something beneficial hurts you more then it can help you.) If these are the underlying issues we should also discuss that as well since it very much has an effect on all wonders current or future. I wish to make the game more enjoyable, that includes for you as well. So a proper discussion is required to gain such an effect. Also i agree the are's wonder is still lackluster. I'm just reluctant to want to make it so good it's mandatory like it used to be pre-cooks.
      Life begets death. Death brings out strife. I'd rather have neither, but here's to this life! :beer:

      The post was edited 6 times, last by Finnarius ().

    • Also, thank you Quartz, Abeged, AJP, hera, and anyone who takes their time to review this thread. Time is the most valuable resource not just in Ikariam. The fact you would share that time with us here is a blessing and shows you truly care for the game in some way. Especially to Quartz and Abeged who have been providing the most discussion.
      Life begets death. Death brings out strife. I'd rather have neither, but here's to this life! :beer:
    • I agree completely with what Finnarius said, as it in its essence is the exact same as I said.
      The miracles are supposed to be tuned towards war, one is the wonder of Ares, there is no discussion to be had whether or not this should benefit the "bob the builders", it shouldn't. The other one is Demeter, of which you could argue should be balanced around possibly making a difference towards these passive players, as to which I agree with you Quartz. It doesn't, but since this is a discussion, this is where we come with our idea as to how. As I also stated in my last post where I took a random sample and applied it, it is not good enough at it's current state, and I concluded that at least Demeter would need to be tweaked.

      And to add to this. You are assuming I have one account it'd seem. Now I am honestly of the opinion that any one person who has not experienced raising at least one account from 0-30 mil, played the full duration on at least one warserver, and can provide evidence of at the bare minimum 3 accounts above 5 million TS, belonging to you, should have their own special badge "average player". Now we're at it, it'd be pretty cool being able to distinguish between board members based on their achievement in the game, and not solely on their amount of posts (new player, average player and veteran player for instance).

      Now let me reply to Quartz. 1000 priests cost 2000 gold. This is a discussion based on war, and as such people are going to be running theocracy. Secondly, the cost of cooks is completely negligible for any account above 5 mil ts, and again, referring to my argumentation in my previous reply. Running 30 cooks is only ever viable if your only job as an active member in a war, is to follow the exact instructions of your general at all times (don't get me wrong, that's completely fine, that's where I started years ago). But assuming you need 1k priests to supply a temple, your account is going to be above 10 mil TS, and you should be past this stage, and as such, 30 cooks is not enough to supply an army, since sets of 20 of these will be going to space once in a while.

      Now for Demeter, shure your town halls are higher than in my example, it is of an account on a 2 year old server, did you expect a 20 mil ts account? If you'd read the introduction to the guide I posted some time ago, you'd know I'm a danish player, having played on the danish servers alpha, beta and gamma. With my biggest account finishing off research within the year. I am well aware Demeter would be pointless in that case, since it is simply way too easy to plunder your way to wine at that stage, and if not, gold can indeed be thrown into helping hands, or buying expensive wine to get people to send it to you.
      I already have 6 forges and 5 posseidons on almost every single one of my account, and as I stated in my very first reply, I thought of these as good opportunities for a raid to be sent, build a temple, and just pop the miracle.

      To balance this several things would have to happen.
      The cooldown of the reworked Demeter would need to be brought down to equal the Forge, reaching permanent uptime, and the number would probably need to be increased to somewhere around 20%.
      Ares would need to be either changed to making your troops completely free for the duration, or changed into permanent uptime from 5-6 cities. That is if both of the miracles should do as suggested. We are still a lot of players, there should still be plenty of ideas.